On the nature of God.

[BarbaraGordon]

Okay, so here's a theological/philosophical question.

Now, in most Protestant circles, God is defined as infinite. He has no beginning, no end, and is omnipotent and omniscient.

It is my understanding that according to LDS theology, God is limited. That there was a point in time before God was God, and that there are certain forces outside of God's control.

Questions:
1. Did I get any of that right?
2. If that description is accurate, then what attributes make God God? What is the divine essence that separates Him from the non-divine?

Keep in mind I'm not trying to be difficult here, I just like to learn stuff.

[ute4ever]

Lisa I am going to cheat and paste an answer given by Joseph Fielding Smith, who was the 10th President of our church, back in the early 1970's.

This was the Question:
Will you kindly explain these two expressions:
(1) 'We know that there is a God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting,' and
(2) 'As man is, God was; as God is man may become.'

This was his Answer:
"Everlasting to everlasting" means from the eternity past to the eternity future as far as man's understanding is concerned, from the pre-existence through the temporal (mortal) life unto the eternity following the resurrection. The Savior said: "...The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things so ever he doeth, these also doeth the Son like wise." (John 5:19.)

From this remark we gather that the Son was doing what the Father had done before him. However, so far as the Father is concerned, we will leave that until we receive further knowledge, when and if we become glorified in his kingdom. So we will deal with this subject in relation to the Son, Jesus Christ.

CHRIST IS OUR ELDER BROTHER
We accept Jesus Christ as God—the Only Begotten Son of the Father in the flesh, and the first begotten in the Spirit. Therefore he is our eldest brother, for we also are the offspring of God. (John 20:17; Acts 17:26-29.) We know that Jesus, the Son of God, came to this world an infant:

And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom and the grace of God was upon him. (Luke 2:40.)
And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, and was in the deserts till the day of his shewing unto Israel. (Ibid., 1:80.)

So we see that Jesus came into this world a babe and had to begin just as other children do, learning line upon line and precept on precept. So in this respect his life and our lives parallel each other, so far as mortality is concerned; the great difference being that he is the Only Begotten Son of God the Father in the flesh.

WE, TOO, MAY RECEIVE THE FULNESS
Now the Father has promised us, if we are obedient to his commandments, that we also shall advance line on line and precept on precept until we also may receive the fulness and become sons and daughters of God! If we become sons of God through obedience to the gospel, then we will be like him. Then he was as we are, we may become as he is, and this is good scripture.

Let us present a few passages of scripture which show that those who are faithful in the keeping of his commandments, shall also become sons of God and entitled to the blessings of the fulness in the Father's kingdom. The Jews accused Jesus of blasphemy because he said he was the Son of God; he answered them:

Is it not written in your law, I said, ye are gods?
If he called them gods; unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest, because I said I am the Son of God? (John 10:34-36.)

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. (1 John 3:1-4.)

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die; but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. (Romans 8:13-17.)

He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. (Revelation 21:7.)

OTHER SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE
All of these passages are taken from the Bible. There are many more in the revelations given to the Prophet Joseph Smith, which sustain this doctrine and harmonize perfectly with those in the Bible. Here is one from the Pearl of Great Price:

And he (Adam) heard a voice out of heaven, saying: Thou are baptized with fire, and with the Holy Ghost. This is the record of the Father and the Son, from henceforth and forever.
And thou art after the order of him who was without beginning of days or end of years, from all eternity to all eternity.
Behold, thou art one in me, a son of God; and thus may all become my sons. Amen. (Moses 6:66-68.)

The Lord revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith many things in relation to the salvation and exaltation of man, which during the ages of darkness were lost to the world, but which have vital importance to all those who seek for the blessings of eternal life. Among them are these:

And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.
They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.
They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things—
They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory;
And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son.
Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God—
Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or of things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ's and Christ is God's.
And they shall overcome all things. (D. & C. 76:53-60.)

And also all they who receive this priesthood receive me, saith the Lord:
For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me;
And he that receiveth me receiveth my Father;
And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father's kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him.
And this is according to the oath and covenant which belongeth to the priesthood. (Ibid., 84:35-39.)

THE SAVIOR PASSED THROUGH TRIALS OF MORTALITY
From these and many other scriptures which have been revealed for our knowledge, obedience, and exaltation, we learn that Jesus Christ passed through all the vicissitudes, temptations, and trials of mortal life just as we have done. He was born a helpless babe, had to be nourished, taught, and "increased in wisdom and stature, and favor with God and man," just as we have to do by keeping the commandments. Moreover, we discover that the promises of exaltation to become joint heirs with him and to become sons of God, possessing the fulness of the Father's kingdom, is to be our gift, and we are to become like him. Therefore, the [phrase "As Man Is, God Once Was"] must be true.

[Sleeping in EQ]

This will not exactly answer your questions, but it does deal with many issues closely related to them. It will help you get a sense of where Mormon ideas of God fit with Christian notions historically.

The author is a long-time family friend, so if you have questions for him, I can probably get them answered for you.

http://home.earthlink.net/~vanehale/...rary/id18.html

[jay santos]

The problem with a lot of these issues is that very little of these doctrines are taught today in the church.

Maybe SIEQ can help, but I doubt if you can find anything official from the church on this doctrine from within the past 20 years.

I believe some doctrines were taught by early LDS church leaders that were shooting from the hip and maybe they didn't have a perfect understanding of what they were teaching. Therefore I'm distrusting of a lot of esoteric doctrines that are only supported by quotes from early church leaders that did not become canon.

Official church doctrine, IMHO, is what is found in the canon (Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine & Covenants, Pearl of Great Price).

The latest I've heard on this subject was from President Gordon B. Hinckley who said something to the effect of "we don't know a lot about it. We don't talk about it a lot."

Therefore, this is how I believe based on that and what is taught in the LDS church officially today.

1. God is omiscient and omnipotent. I'm pretty sure of that since that was the first thing I had to learn in Korean to teach the missionary lessons.

2. I don't believe God is limited or subservient to any other God or entity. I do believe God _may_ be subjected to fundamental principles of truth (although this is sketchy). i.e. God could not start behaving un-Godlike.

3. I believe the entity/facet of the Godhead that is Jesus Christ the son of God and Savior of the world is subject to the entity/facet of the Godhead that is the Father and Supreme Being, only inasmuch as the role of that entity/facet of the Godhead is logicaly subject to the Father. i.e. Jesus submitted his will to the Father. We pray to the Father in the name of the Son, who advocates (implies an inferior level) our position with the Father.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by jay santos

The problem with a lot of these issues is that very little of these doctrines are taught today in the church.

Maybe SIEQ can help, but I doubt if you can find anything official from the church on this doctrine from within the past 20 years.

I believe some doctrines were taught by early LDS church leaders that were shooting from the hip and maybe they didn't have a perfect understanding of what they were teaching. Therefore I'm distrusting of a lot of esoteric doctrines that are only supported by quotes from early church leaders that did not become canon.

Official church doctrine, IMHO, is what is found in the canon (Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine & Covenants, Pearl of Great Price).

The latest I've heard on this subject was from President Gordon B. Hinckley who said something to the effect of "we don't know a lot about it. We don't talk about it a lot."

Therefore, this is how I believe based on that and what is taught in the LDS church officially today.

1. God is omiscient and omnipotent. I'm pretty sure of that since that was the first thing I had to learn in Korean to teach the missionary lessons.

2. I don't believe God is limited or subservient to any other God or entity. I do believe God _may_ be subjected to fundamental principles of truth (although this is sketchy). i.e. God could not start behaving un-Godlike.

3. I believe the entity/facet of the Godhead that is Jesus Christ the son of God and Savior of the world is subject to the entity/facet of the Godhead that is the Father and Supreme Being, only inasmuch as the role of that entity/facet of the Godhead is logicaly subject to the Father. i.e. Jesus submitted his will to the Father. We pray to the Father in the name of the Son, who advocates (implies an inferior level) our position with the Father.

We do not believe in God being omnipotent. He can't violate universal principles of physics and nature.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Archaea

We do not believe in God being omnipotent. He can't violate universal principles of physics and nature.

Yeah, he can't create a rock so heavy he can't lift it.

I can't remember what it is in English, but in Korean I taught that God is omnipotent and omniscient as one of the first sentences of the 1st principle of 1st discussion. I'm going to run with it unless a living prophet overrules it.

[BarbaraGordon]

Originally Posted by jay santos

Yeah, he can't create a rock so heavy he can't lift it.

I can't remember what it is in English, but in Korean I taught that God is omnipotent and omniscient as one of the first sentences of the 1st principle of 1st discussion. I'm going to run with it unless a living prophet overrules it.

Well, that's what I'm really curious about, is what the believers actuallybelieve, and of course we all interpret stated doctrine differently.

It is very difficult for me to conceive of a God that is not omnipotent, or a God that is not eternal. A God that is subject to the laws of nature, instead of a God that creates the laws of nature. I shall have to think on this.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by BarbaraGordon

Well, that's what I'm really curious about, is what the believers actuallybelieve, and of course we all interpret stated doctrine differently.

It is very difficult for me to conceive of a God that is not omnipotent, or a God that is not eternal. A God that is subject to the laws of nature, instead of a God that creates the laws of nature. I shall have to think on this.

A God that does not operate by the laws of nature is not a God, but a myth IMHO. How could God not be bound by anything? I can't conceive of those properties. If you can conceive of God being limited by anything, then you conceive of a limited God. Do you conceive a God that is limited by his promises? If not, then why would he promise? If so, then you conceive of a God who is not omnipotent.

The laws of nature create the God. They are laws which I do not understand, but laws all the same.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by BarbaraGordon

Well, that's what I'm really curious about, is what the believers actuallybelieve, and of course we all interpret stated doctrine differently.

It is very difficult for me to conceive of a God that is not omnipotent, or a God that is not eternal. A God that is subject to the laws of nature, instead of a God that creates the laws of nature. I shall have to think on this.

Sadly I'm not sure anybody here on this site could be grouped as a typical believer, except maybe Rocky. Typical being defined as uneducated, simple folks that will violently defend the stated doctrine, while at the same time not really even understand it.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by jay santos

Yeah, he can't create a rock so heavy he can't lift it.

I can't remember what it is in English, but in Korean I taught that God is omnipotent and omniscient as one of the first sentences of the 1st principle of 1st discussion. I'm going to run with it unless a living prophet overrules it.

When did the discussions get elevated to canon? Remind me I forgot.