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BlueHair · 01-13-2007, 05:24 PM

For the sake of disclosure, let me be up front and tell you I'm not a believer. I have times when I wish I could go back to believing, but I just can't do it.

Here's my question : Do you think it is dishonest to get up in testimony and claim to "know" something that you really only "believe"? I remember as a missionary using "believe" and getting chastised for it. It always bothered me to attend a meeting and hear everyone say they know everything. It was very alienating. It seemed odd that I was the only one in the room that was still in belief mode and hadn't advanced to knowledge mode. It also seemed strange that people repeated the same things. The church is true, JS was a prophet, GBH is a true prophet, Jesus died for us. Why repeat stuff that you obviously know? Is it a case of if you repeat it enough, you'll get the knowledge?

il Padrino Ute · 01-13-2007, 05:31 PM

I always say that I believe. There are very few things that I know, as far as the church is concerned because of very personal experiences. Until I know, I will continue to say that I believe. IMO, it's more honest.

I believe that people continually repeat that they know because of the culture of Mormonism, not so much because if they keep saying it, it will eventually come to be. Everyone else says it, so far too many say they do as well in order to not rock the boat of Mormon culture.

The Mormon culture sucks, but the Gospel as taught in the Mormon church doesn't.

Sleeping in EQ · 01-13-2007, 06:09 PM

A little exposure to philosophy teaches most people that absolute knowledge about anything is pretty tenuous. When someone asserts "I know" without qualification, I can't help but wonder if they are being true to their sense of personal integrity or if they are just being prim and self-indulgent. A better question than "What do I know?" implied in a testimony meeting is "How do I live?"

Something like, "I have felt the Spirit and plan to be the best Latter-day Saint I can be because I think it's the best thing to do with my life," has a kind of pure sincerity to it. It's built on "belonging" more than "knowing." It's a declaration that one belongs to Jesus and feels at home in the Church. It lacks the kind of competitive posturing and sanctimony, the whiff of rameumptom, that sometimes drifts through a testimony meeting.

Jeff Lebowski · 01-13-2007, 07:04 PM

"I know" = "I strongly believe"

Simple as that. Nothing to get worked up about.

jay santos · 01-13-2007, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueHair

For the sake of disclosure, let me be up front and tell you I'm not a believer. I have times when I wish I could go back to believing, but I just can't do it.

Here's my question : Do you think it is dishonest to get up in testimony and claim to "know" something that you really only "believe"? I remember as a missionary using "believe" and getting chastised for it. It always bothered me to attend a meeting and hear everyone say they know everything. It was very alienating. It seemed odd that I was the only one in the room that was still in belief mode and hadn't advanced to knowledge mode. It also seemed strange that people repeated the same things. The church is true, JS was a prophet, GBH is a true prophet, Jesus died for us. Why repeat stuff that you obviously know? Is it a case of if you repeat it enough, you'll get the knowledge?

I have to agree here. And also agree with SIEQ that hearing someone bear testimony in a more vulnerable, honest way is actually more powerful.

We use peer pressure against each other to have the "strongest" testimony. I've heard church leaders general and local chastise members for not using the words "I know".

It's a hard habit to break. I have been trying to make a conscious decision to move to more honest vocabulary but I still find myself bowing to peer pressure and going for the strongest words at times.

RockyBalboa · 01-13-2007, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueHair

For the sake of disclosure, let me be up front and tell you I'm not a believer. I have times when I wish I could go back to believing, but I just can't do it.

Here's my question : Do you think it is dishonest to get up in testimony and claim to "know" something that you really only "believe"? I remember as a missionary using "believe" and getting chastised for it. It always bothered me to attend a meeting and hear everyone say they know everything. It was very alienating. It seemed odd that I was the only one in the room that was still in belief mode and hadn't advanced to knowledge mode. It also seemed strange that people repeated the same things. The church is true, JS was a prophet, GBH is a true prophet, Jesus died for us. Why repeat stuff that you obviously know? Is it a case of if you repeat it enough, you'll get the knowledge?

Why did you go on a mission if you didn't have a testimony? Or did you have one and just eventually lost it over time? Honest questions.

BlueHair · 01-13-2007, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RockyBalboa

Why did you go on a mission if you didn't have a testimony? Or did you have one and just eventually lost it over time? Honest questions.

Mostly out of fear that I would regret not going. I didn't really doubt that it was true, I just didn't know it for myself. I went to church because that's how I was raised. It never occured to me to question anything or challenge my own beliefs. In my bishops interview, I answered every question honestly, but not the way a future missionary should answer. I told him I didn't have a real testimony. He told me I'd get one on my mission. I don't blame him. The method back then was to get everyone out that could possibly go, and hope for the best. I didn't really want to go, but I did work hard and make the best of it. The ironic thing is that I'm the only RM in the family and only one of two inactives. Go figure.

RockyBalboa · 01-14-2007, 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueHair

Mostly out of fear that I would regret not going. I didn't really doubt that it was true, I just didn't know it for myself. I went to church because that's how I was raised. It never occured to me to question anything or challenge my own beliefs. In my bishops interview, I answered every question honestly, but not the way a future missionary should answer. I told him I didn't have a real testimony. He told me I'd get one on my mission. I don't blame him. The method back then was to get everyone out that could possibly go, and hope for the best. I didn't really want to go, but I did work hard and make the best of it. The ironic thing is that I'm the only RM in the family and only one of two inactives. Go figure.

Interesting. I appreciate the honest response. You're cool in my book.

Venkman · 01-14-2007, 08:04 PM

This is an interesting thread. So basically, people who state they "know the gospel is true" are either self-important rameupton-types or insincere folks bowing to peer pressure.

A third, more radical, theory is that some folks might actually believe that they "know" the gospel is true.

Finally, let me just say that I don't begrudge anyone who bears their testimony whether they know or believe. I just find it amusing that we're attempting to judge the strength or weakness of our brothers and sisters testimonies.

Testimony meetings must really suck for some of you guys.

myboynoah · 01-14-2007, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Venkman

This is an interesting thread. So basically, people who state they "know the gospel is true" are either self-important rameupton-types or insincere folks bowing to peer pressure.

A third, more radical, theory is that some folks might actually believe that they "know" the gospel is true.

Finally, let me just say that I don't begrudge anyone who bears their testimony whether they know or believe.

I think Venkman makes a good point here.

01-13-2007, 05:24 PM	#1
BlueHair Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Utah Posts: 1,148	Testimonies For the sake of disclosure, let me be up front and tell you I'm not a believer. I have times when I wish I could go back to believing, but I just can't do it. Here's my question : Do you think it is dishonest to get up in testimony and claim to "know" something that you really only "believe"? I remember as a missionary using "believe" and getting chastised for it. It always bothered me to attend a meeting and hear everyone say they know everything. It was very alienating. It seemed odd that I was the only one in the room that was still in belief mode and hadn't advanced to knowledge mode. It also seemed strange that people repeated the same things. The church is true, JS was a prophet, GBH is a true prophet, Jesus died for us. Why repeat stuff that you obviously know? Is it a case of if you repeat it enough, you'll get the knowledge?

01-13-2007, 05:31 PM	#2
il Padrino Ute Board Pinhead Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In the basement of my house, Murray, Utah. Posts: 15,941	I always say that I believe. There are very few things that I know, as far as the church is concerned because of very personal experiences. Until I know, I will continue to say that I believe. IMO, it's more honest. I believe that people continually repeat that they know because of the culture of Mormonism, not so much because if they keep saying it, it will eventually come to be. Everyone else says it, so far too many say they do as well in order to not rock the boat of Mormon culture. The Mormon culture sucks, but the Gospel as taught in the Mormon church doesn't. __________________ "The beauty of baseball is not having to explain it." - Chuck Shriver "This is now the joke that stupid people laugh at." - Christopher Hitchens on IQ jokes about GWB.

01-13-2007, 06:09 PM	#3
Sleeping in EQ Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: The People's Republic of Monsanto Posts: 3,085	A little exposure to philosophy teaches most people that absolute knowledge about anything is pretty tenuous. When someone asserts "I know" without qualification, I can't help but wonder if they are being true to their sense of personal integrity or if they are just being prim and self-indulgent. A better question than "What do I know?" implied in a testimony meeting is "How do I live?" Something like, "I have felt the Spirit and plan to be the best Latter-day Saint I can be because I think it's the best thing to do with my life," has a kind of pure sincerity to it. It's built on "belonging" more than "knowing." It's a declaration that one belongs to Jesus and feels at home in the Church. It lacks the kind of competitive posturing and sanctimony, the whiff of rameumptom, that sometimes drifts through a testimony meeting. __________________ "Do not despise the words of prophets, but test everything; hold fast to what is good; " 1 Thess. 5:21 (NRSV) We all trust our own unorthodoxies. Last edited by Sleeping in EQ; 01-13-2007 at 06:11 PM.

01-13-2007, 07:04 PM	#4
Jeff Lebowski Charon Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In the heart of darkness (Provo) Posts: 9,564	"I know" = "I strongly believe" Simple as that. Nothing to get worked up about. __________________ "... the arc of the universe is long but it bends toward justice." Martin Luther King, Jr.

01-14-2007, 08:04 PM	#9
Venkman Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: South Jordan, UT Posts: 1,799	This is an interesting thread. So basically, people who state they "know the gospel is true" are either self-important rameupton-types or insincere folks bowing to peer pressure. A third, more radical, theory is that some folks might actually believe that they "know" the gospel is true. Finally, let me just say that I don't begrudge anyone who bears their testimony whether they know or believe. I just find it amusing that we're attempting to judge the strength or weakness of our brothers and sisters testimonies. Testimony meetings must really suck for some of you guys. Last edited by Venkman; 01-14-2007 at 08:08 PM.