Origin of the Gospels/Jesus - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

SeattleUte · 01-12-2007, 10:10 PM

Many a religion finds its origins in times of dislocation and chaos, even at the frontiers of a great civilization, amid the downtrodden or dispossessed. This certainly describes, in my view, the origins of the three great monotheistic creeds, Christianity, Islam, and Judaism. Mormonism as well. The linked review of Garry Wills' new book, "What Paul Meant," gives a nice synopsis of the rise of Christianity and Paul's role vis-a-vis the appearance of the Gospels.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...=&pagewanted=1

Wills argues that of the Biblical passages Paul's writing "deserves to be recognized as our most reliable guide to Jesus' true teachings." "Far from having a 'simple biographical basis,' the Gospels are 'sophisticated theological constructs, none written by their putative authors, all drawing on second- or third- or fourth-hand accounts -- and all written from a quarter of a century to half a century after Paul's letters,' which were themselves written roughly two decades after the death of Jesus."

The Gospels allude constantly to the Old Testament and incorporate thematic and plot elements from the Old Testament into their text. Some would say this is because the Old Testament was a forerunner of the Gospels. The most logical and practical explanation based on everyday experience is that the authors of the Gospels (anonymous to us for all intents and purposes) used the Old Testament as a guide and a matrix in constructing the New Testament, just as, say, Virgil made use of the Iliad in writing Aeneid, or Francis Ford Coppola made use of Heart of Darkness in creating Apocalypse Now.

Also interesting is the evolution of the Gospels--beginning with Mark, clearly written for a Jewish readership, and winding up with Luke and Matthew, clearly intended for Romans. The authors of the Gospels were brilliant, and they understood the historic significance of founding myths such as the Iliad, their power literally to give rise to Empires.

I picture in my mind's eye a Jewish carpenter, a refugee from the destruction of Jerusalem, grieving the death of his wife and especially his young son in the holocaust that attended the Roman seige of Jerusalem. He is lost in the desert; he has lost all. Perhaps worst of all is the destruction of the temple; with skillful hands he created some of the beautiful and sacred objects that have gone up in flames. Perhaps he dreams of vengeance against the Romans. His deceased wife was named Miriam; his son Joshua; he is a noble, of the House of David. He is a Hellenized Jew (like Paul), educated by Greeks, whose language is his first.

One day Joseph falls in with a group of wanderers, fellow Jews. They are of the so-called cult of Jesus. They carry the tattered letters of their martyred cult leader, Paul. Joseph, seeking solace, borrows the letters, goes to a hilltop in the desert and begins to read. At night he stares up at the vault of the firmament and meditates.

Suddenly, Joseph is struck with an inspiration. He begins to write. The story comes out of the subconscious. It's the biography of Jesus--partly autobiographical, partly adapted from the Old Testament, partly the product of his formiddable imagination and education. . . . He thinks of his dead son, killed by Romans. So whereas Judaism had been a religion of the father, Christianity thus becomes a religion of the son. His son will have lived for a reason. The world will remember his son.

That's my theory anyway.

All-American · 01-12-2007, 10:18 PM

I'm actually pretty sure that the King James Bible was written by the hand of God.

Sorry, but you're wrong on this one.

MikeWaters · 01-12-2007, 11:11 PM

I think I am dumber for having read that. You can do better SU.

ute4ever · 01-13-2007, 12:05 AM

Dang! I knew I should have gone clubbing with the cool kids this evening. Now that I know religion is a fraud, I'm going to do whatever I want.

Thank goodness for so many intellectual authors who could see past the frauds that have been ensnaring my soul. I have a much better source now.

RockyBalboa · 01-13-2007, 12:08 AM

I feel bad for the massive lack of self worth you feel and that is so evident in your angry and bitter life.

I agree with Mike. You're LDS at heart and don't know it. I feel the good in you father...let go of your hate.

You'll come back.

BlueHair · 01-13-2007, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by All-American

I'm actually pretty sure that the King James Bible was written by the hand of God.

Sorry, but you're wrong on this one.

What do you mean by this? Surely you don't think that God wrote the Bible. The Bible itself doesn't even claim that.

SeattleUte · 01-13-2007, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I think I am dumber for having read that. You can do better SU.

Search in your heart MikeWaters, you know it to be true.

creekster · 01-13-2007, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

Search in your heart MikeWaters, you know it to be true.

Now THAT's funny.

il Padrino Ute · 01-13-2007, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

Search in your heart MikeWaters, you know it to be true.

You left out the part where you're supposed to say "I am your father Mike. Join with me on the dark side of the force and together we will rule the universe."

All-American · 01-13-2007, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueHair

What do you mean by this? Surely you don't think that God wrote the Bible. The Bible itself doesn't even claim that.

Sarcasm.

01-12-2007, 10:10 PM	#1
SeattleUte fairlds.org Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 10,665	Origin of the Gospels/Jesus Many a religion finds its origins in times of dislocation and chaos, even at the frontiers of a great civilization, amid the downtrodden or dispossessed. This certainly describes, in my view, the origins of the three great monotheistic creeds, Christianity, Islam, and Judaism. Mormonism as well. The linked review of Garry Wills' new book, "What Paul Meant," gives a nice synopsis of the rise of Christianity and Paul's role vis-a-vis the appearance of the Gospels. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...=&pagewanted=1 Wills argues that of the Biblical passages Paul's writing "deserves to be recognized as our most reliable guide to Jesus' true teachings." "Far from having a 'simple biographical basis,' the Gospels are 'sophisticated theological constructs, none written by their putative authors, all drawing on second- or third- or fourth-hand accounts -- and all written from a quarter of a century to half a century after Paul's letters,' which were themselves written roughly two decades after the death of Jesus." The Gospels allude constantly to the Old Testament and incorporate thematic and plot elements from the Old Testament into their text. Some would say this is because the Old Testament was a forerunner of the Gospels. The most logical and practical explanation based on everyday experience is that the authors of the Gospels (anonymous to us for all intents and purposes) used the Old Testament as a guide and a matrix in constructing the New Testament, just as, say, Virgil made use of the Iliad in writing Aeneid, or Francis Ford Coppola made use of Heart of Darkness in creating Apocalypse Now. Also interesting is the evolution of the Gospels--beginning with Mark, clearly written for a Jewish readership, and winding up with Luke and Matthew, clearly intended for Romans. The authors of the Gospels were brilliant, and they understood the historic significance of founding myths such as the Iliad, their power literally to give rise to Empires. I picture in my mind's eye a Jewish carpenter, a refugee from the destruction of Jerusalem, grieving the death of his wife and especially his young son in the holocaust that attended the Roman seige of Jerusalem. He is lost in the desert; he has lost all. Perhaps worst of all is the destruction of the temple; with skillful hands he created some of the beautiful and sacred objects that have gone up in flames. Perhaps he dreams of vengeance against the Romans. His deceased wife was named Miriam; his son Joshua; he is a noble, of the House of David. He is a Hellenized Jew (like Paul), educated by Greeks, whose language is his first. One day Joseph falls in with a group of wanderers, fellow Jews. They are of the so-called cult of Jesus. They carry the tattered letters of their martyred cult leader, Paul. Joseph, seeking solace, borrows the letters, goes to a hilltop in the desert and begins to read. At night he stares up at the vault of the firmament and meditates. Suddenly, Joseph is struck with an inspiration. He begins to write. The story comes out of the subconscious. It's the biography of Jesus--partly autobiographical, partly adapted from the Old Testament, partly the product of his formiddable imagination and education. . . . He thinks of his dead son, killed by Romans. So whereas Judaism had been a religion of the father, Christianity thus becomes a religion of the son. His son will have lived for a reason. The world will remember his son. That's my theory anyway. __________________ Interrupt all you like. We're involved in a complicated story here, and not everything is quite what it seems to be. —Paul Auster Last edited by SeattleUte; 01-13-2007 at 04:00 AM.

01-12-2007, 10:18 PM	#2
All-American Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,420	I'm actually pretty sure that the King James Bible was written by the hand of God. Sorry, but you're wrong on this one. __________________ εν αρχη ην ο λογος

01-13-2007, 12:08 AM	#5
RockyBalboa Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Salt Lake City Posts: 7,297	I feel bad for the massive lack of self worth you feel and that is so evident in your angry and bitter life. I agree with Mike. You're LDS at heart and don't know it. I feel the good in you father...let go of your hate. You'll come back. __________________ Masquerading as Cougarguards very own genius dumbass since 05'.

01-12-2007, 11:11 PM	#3
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,368	I think I am dumber for having read that. You can do better SU.

01-13-2007, 12:05 AM	#4
ute4ever I must not tell lies Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 5,103	Dang! I knew I should have gone clubbing with the cool kids this evening. Now that I know religion is a fraud, I'm going to do whatever I want. Thank goodness for so many intellectual authors who could see past the frauds that have been ensnaring my soul. I have a much better source now.