Sharing spiritual experiences in church - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

MikeWaters · 01-08-2007, 07:32 PM

Preface: Prior to Sunday, I had been thinking a bit about the Kim fellow who died in Oregon. I was wondering why he was laying in a creek when he was found. Was he confused and stumbled into it? Did the water feel warm in his hypothermic state? Was it some bizarre last effort to save himself (slow down his system, but still be alive)?

I have random morbid thoughts I guess.

So on Sunday, we have fast and testimony meeting. My asst. scoutmaster gets up about midway through the meeting. He is a good guy. Young, about 21, a convert of about a couple years. His girlfriend at the time introduced him to the church, and they are now married. He is hispanic, and comes from a financially modest background. His parents are Jehovah's Witnesses. He currently works as phone support while he goes to community college. He loves the piano and would love to be a music major someday. He appears to be gifted on the piano, but a little rough and untrained.

Anyway, so he gets up to the podium and talks about how he and his wife listen to the book of mormon on tape while they drive to work. He said he was reading about how Lehi was a visionary man. Then he says, "Well, I think I am a visionary man too."

This approximates what he said: "Recently I had a dream that was very special to me. I was walking in this dreary colorless landscape. I was wading through water up to my waist. I was sad. Then suddenly I dove into the water, and there was all this light and this brilliant blue and there was Jesus Christ on his throne, surrounded by angels, at least four of them. And it was so wonderful and peaceful and brilliant. And then suddenly I was pulled out from underwater, and I was back to the dreary gray world. I tried to dive in again. Brothers and sisters, I know that Heavenly Father is *so close*, it's right in front of us, separated by just a thin veil. If we could only see it. Have faith. It's right there."

This guy is completely without guile. He was not trying to preen or brag or anything like that.

It occurred to me that people rarely, it seems, share experiences like that. Perhaps partly because they are considered sacred, and it somehow profanes them to share. But the counterpoint to that would be, 100 years ago, I doubt the Saints felt the same way. It seems we are increasingly constrained , perhaps artificially, in the ways we communicate these sorts of things. If so, that would be a shame.

And it also occurred to me, that maybe in some small way, this young man's experience answered my question about Mr. Kim. I picture him hitting the water, and finding himself embraced and at peace. Of course, I don't think that the dream was shared to answer my questions about Mr. Kim. But the ripplings out of sharing experiences can touch people in a variety of ways, that we could never understand.

Archaea · 01-08-2007, 07:52 PM

Not shared to preserve sanctity, and because most of us aren't having these experiences.

MikeWaters · 01-08-2007, 07:58 PM

I am perfectly comfortable with people not sharing to preserve a sense of sacredness. But I'm glad this fellow shared, and I think the modern phenomenon of not sharing is not necessarily a good thing.

When only the ward kooks talk about spiritual experiences, it sends the message that "things like this only happen to kooks." Kids are very impressionable, they will pick up on this. And when belief in spiritual experiences die, we will become little more than the Episcopalian church or JoelOsteen.com.

BarbaraGordon · 01-08-2007, 08:00 PM

I had a huge spiritual revelation thingy last summer.
When I told the women in my Sunday School class, they clearly thought I was nuts.

This is why people don't share.

MikeWaters · 01-08-2007, 08:01 PM

Along the same lines, I think there were some members that were very offended when someone in the media asked the prophet if he had seen God.

I wonder why if the prophet or an apostle that has had such an experience, might feel constrained to never speak of it or deny it. Versus proclaim it.

Are we living in a time when our apostles don't feel comfortable saying such things? Or is it more the sense that they don't happen? I think that GBH has implied or said that he has not seen God or Christ, which I am perfectly comfortable with.

However, I am getting a bit astray from my original post. Which was someone sharing a tender experience.

MikeWaters · 01-08-2007, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarbaraGordon

I had a huge spiritual revelation thingy last summer.
When I told the women in my Sunday School class, they clearly thought I was nuts.

This is why people don't share.

When I have a private moment, I will thank him for sharing his experience.

I guess I am arguing that if there is pressure to stop people from sharing these kinds of things, implicit with that is the notion that they do not really happen.

BarbaraGordon · 01-08-2007, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

When I have a private moment, I will thank him for sharing his experience.

That's a good idea. It was quite brave of him to share with so many people.

I think in American society, people are made uncomfortable by the intimate. Spiritual journey is among the most intimate of mankind's experiences.

Archaea · 01-08-2007, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I am perfectly comfortable with people not sharing to preserve a sense of sacredness. But I'm glad this fellow shared, and I think the modern phenomenon of not sharing is not necessarily a good thing.

When only the ward kooks talk about spiritual experiences, it sends the message that "things like this only happen to kooks." Kids are very impressionable, they will pick up on this. And when belief in spiritual experiences die, we will become little more than the Episcopalian church or JoelOsteen.com.

The early leaders shared experiences quite commonly. However, it seems as a leadership we have steered clear of them. In part, to look ecumenical, and in part to preserve sanctity, and maybe to conceal the part that we're not spiritual enough to have them.

Finally, I wonder if, given the conditions and times, that they are NOT what we need, but instead the more subtle assurances such as the still small voice of Elijah.

jay santos · 01-08-2007, 08:20 PM

I think these experiences are fairly common.

I think we do discuss them less than the early saints, did.

Not sure if that's good or bad.

Archaea · 01-08-2007, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jay santos

I think these experiences are fairly common.

I think we do discuss them less than the early saints, did.

Not sure if that's good or bad.

We are trying to appear to be just like everybody else.

If they are common, then I am unaware of them. I've never had anything other than an Elijah small still voice.

Perhaps it is good to blend and to eliminate all brandmarks of distinctiveness.

01-08-2007, 07:32 PM	#1
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,368	Sharing spiritual experiences in church Preface: Prior to Sunday, I had been thinking a bit about the Kim fellow who died in Oregon. I was wondering why he was laying in a creek when he was found. Was he confused and stumbled into it? Did the water feel warm in his hypothermic state? Was it some bizarre last effort to save himself (slow down his system, but still be alive)? I have random morbid thoughts I guess. So on Sunday, we have fast and testimony meeting. My asst. scoutmaster gets up about midway through the meeting. He is a good guy. Young, about 21, a convert of about a couple years. His girlfriend at the time introduced him to the church, and they are now married. He is hispanic, and comes from a financially modest background. His parents are Jehovah's Witnesses. He currently works as phone support while he goes to community college. He loves the piano and would love to be a music major someday. He appears to be gifted on the piano, but a little rough and untrained. Anyway, so he gets up to the podium and talks about how he and his wife listen to the book of mormon on tape while they drive to work. He said he was reading about how Lehi was a visionary man. Then he says, "Well, I think I am a visionary man too." This approximates what he said: "Recently I had a dream that was very special to me. I was walking in this dreary colorless landscape. I was wading through water up to my waist. I was sad. Then suddenly I dove into the water, and there was all this light and this brilliant blue and there was Jesus Christ on his throne, surrounded by angels, at least four of them. And it was so wonderful and peaceful and brilliant. And then suddenly I was pulled out from underwater, and I was back to the dreary gray world. I tried to dive in again. Brothers and sisters, I know that Heavenly Father is so close, it's right in front of us, separated by just a thin veil. If we could only see it. Have faith. It's right there." This guy is completely without guile. He was not trying to preen or brag or anything like that. It occurred to me that people rarely, it seems, share experiences like that. Perhaps partly because they are considered sacred, and it somehow profanes them to share. But the counterpoint to that would be, 100 years ago, I doubt the Saints felt the same way. It seems we are increasingly constrained , perhaps artificially, in the ways we communicate these sorts of things. If so, that would be a shame. And it also occurred to me, that maybe in some small way, this young man's experience answered my question about Mr. Kim. I picture him hitting the water, and finding himself embraced and at peace. Of course, I don't think that the dream was shared to answer my questions about Mr. Kim. But the ripplings out of sharing experiences can touch people in a variety of ways, that we could never understand.

01-08-2007, 07:52 PM	#2
Archaea Assistant to the Regional Manager Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: The Orgasmatron Posts: 24,338	Not shared to preserve sanctity, and because most of us aren't having these experiences. __________________ Ἓν οἶδα ὅτι οὐδὲν οἶδα

01-08-2007, 07:58 PM	#3
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,368	I am perfectly comfortable with people not sharing to preserve a sense of sacredness. But I'm glad this fellow shared, and I think the modern phenomenon of not sharing is not necessarily a good thing. When only the ward kooks talk about spiritual experiences, it sends the message that "things like this only happen to kooks." Kids are very impressionable, they will pick up on this. And when belief in spiritual experiences die, we will become little more than the Episcopalian church or JoelOsteen.com.

01-08-2007, 08:00 PM	#4
BarbaraGordon Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Gotham City Posts: 7,157	I had a huge spiritual revelation thingy last summer. When I told the women in my Sunday School class, they clearly thought I was nuts. This is why people don't share.

01-08-2007, 08:01 PM	#5
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,368	Along the same lines, I think there were some members that were very offended when someone in the media asked the prophet if he had seen God. I wonder why if the prophet or an apostle that has had such an experience, might feel constrained to never speak of it or deny it. Versus proclaim it. Are we living in a time when our apostles don't feel comfortable saying such things? Or is it more the sense that they don't happen? I think that GBH has implied or said that he has not seen God or Christ, which I am perfectly comfortable with. However, I am getting a bit astray from my original post. Which was someone sharing a tender experience.

01-08-2007, 08:20 PM	#9
jay santos Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 6,177	I think these experiences are fairly common. I think we do discuss them less than the early saints, did. Not sure if that's good or bad.