Lost Cities of the Amazon

[MikeWaters]

Was watching National Geographic channel. Had a doc with the same title as the title of my post.

Essentially the doc disputes the dogma that the Amazon was always sparsely inhabited because of the poor soil not being able to sustain a lot of people.

They talk about the account written by the priest that went with Orellana down the Amazon and how he talked about huge numbers of people, many thousands, that was dismissed as fabrications at the time. Was republished at the end of the 19th century, and is now being reexamined and has been given new credence.

Now they have discovered that there were cities with thousands of people. They show an ancient ditch that they have discovered was used as a wall (timbers placed in ditch). There were many settlement/cities all connected by elaborate systems of roads.

In the doc, it says that it is very well possible that in pre-Columbian times, the Amazon basin held "millions" of people.

Where are the stone buildings and towers and temples? There are none. Because in that area there is no stone to quarry.

Archaeologists and sociologists had assumed that the current iteration of native society in the Amazonian basin was a direct continuation of ancient civilization there, but that appears to be incorrect.

http://channel.nationalgeographic.co.../3819/Overview

Research published in Science Magazine:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3077413/

[MikeWaters]

A more recent article from Heckenberger:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum

Science. 2008 Aug 29;321(5893):1214-7.Click here to read Links

Comment in:
Science. 2008 Aug 29;321(5893):1151.

Pre-Columbian urbanism, anthropogenic landscapes, and the future of the Amazon.
Heckenberger MJ, Russell JC, Fausto C, Toney JR, Schmidt MJ, Pereira E, Franchetto B, Kuikuro A.

Department of Anthropology, University of Florida, Gainesville, FL 32611, USA. mheck@ufl.edu

The archaeology of pre-Columbian polities in the Amazon River basin forces a reconsideration of early urbanism and long-term change in tropical forest landscapes. We describe settlement and land-use patterns of complex societies on the eve of European contact (after 1492) in the Upper Xingu region of the Brazilian Amazon. These societies were organized in articulated clusters, representing small independent polities, within a regional peer polity. These patterns constitute a "galactic" form of prehistoric urbanism, sharing features with small-scale urban polities in other areas. Understanding long-term change in coupled human-environment systems relating to these societies has implications for conservation and sustainable development, notably to control ecological degradation and maintain regional biodiversity.

This is in Science. This means it is top drawer scientific inquiry, generally speaking.

[MikeWaters]

From the 2008 article:

Plaza towns are
distinguished by major ditches (500 to >2000 m
long), defining settlement boundaries and, in
some cases, occurring within settlements (fig. S1)
(18). Ditches range from 1 to 3 m deep and 5 to
10 m wide. They are associated with raised interior
berms (formed from ditch fill) and were
augmented with a wooden palisade wall

[SeattleUte]

Mike, I think they've finally found the Nephites' cities!

[MikeWaters]

Honestly, FAIR/FARMS would be better off giving their money to this guy, instead of chiasma analysis.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Honestly, FAIR/FARMS would be better off giving their money to this guy, instead of chiasma analysis.

actually I take this back. Bad idea. If he accepted any money from FAIR his research would be discredited.

The "galactic" structure is very interesting. Highly geometrical, huge roads. Palisades, berms. All clustered around a galactic center.

One possible interpretation is that this was a people highly concerned about self-defense. The ability to rapidly communicate and move people must have been paramount. Expansion must have been deliberate and strategic, with a strong 'command and control.'

The author doesn't make these interpretations. He talks about it in terms of efficient land use. And how the size of the roads held symbolic significance.

Well, I know why we make roads big in 2008: to move a lot of crap really quickly. I think it would be foolish to discount this explanation for these ancient people as well.

[Indy Coug]

Where's the narrow neck of land?

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Where's the narrow neck of land?

That would seem to kill a 'limited geography' theory of the BoM in this location.

However aspects of this society are interesting for a few reasons: 1) the defensive fortifications, 2) larger than expected populations, 3) the idea that there are 'lost civilizations' yet to be discovered in South America, 4) the concept that preservation for hundreds or thousands of years is going to be difficult.

Also, if disease wiped out 95% of all persons, how does that impact genetic theories re: Lehi's genetic input?

Certainly, I think most would agree, that the archaeological evidence in support of historicity of the BoM is extremely weak, as of 2008.

[BarbaraGordon]

There's a great card game called Lost Cities. It has nearly led to divorce on any number of occasions. (That's how we determine whether a game is worth playing. If you don't get into it enough to risk the marriage, it's not worth the time.)

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by BarbaraGordon

There's a great card game called Lost Cities. It has nearly led to divorce on any number of occasions. (That's how we determine whether a game is worth playing. If you don't get into it enough to risk the marriage, it's not worth the time.)

Farrah doesn't play any games with me, because all previous games have almost ended in divorce, and before marriage, almost ended in breakup.