Bob Millet on grace

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by ChinoCoug

that's what SE Robinson says.

I wouldn't say that's how Robinson puts it. It's not a formula of 1/x = grace, 1/y = works.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Tex

Yes, you are being unfair. I think grace is hugely underemphasized in Mormon culture.

Witness, for example, my inversion of Mike Waters "ladder" analogy. (I'll say here, I'm not a big fan of the ladder analogy, in general).

http://cougarguard.com/forum/showpos...17&postcount=2

I completely and totally disagree with Waters in that post. But your version doesn't sound much different the way you preach it in many of your posts.

[ChinoCoug]

Originally Posted by jay santos

I wouldn't say that's how Robinson puts it. It's not a formula of 1/x = grace, 1/y = works.

he did say grace is the cake, works is the cherry on top.

but his thesis was that works is what we owe Jesus for saving us from our sins, i.e., grace

[JohnnyLingo]

Originally Posted by Archaea

So?

His children die all the time and nobody notices.

Wow, that helps me understand you a lot better.

Thanks for the insight into your mind, Arch.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by JohnnyLingo

Hmm.

I guess the problem is that our works seem so huge in the life. There are tons of commandments to keep, service we need to do, callings we need to magnify, families we need to righteously preside over... it can get overwhelming.

To say these things are almost nothing seems hard to grasp, I think.

Do you "need" to do them? Or do you do them because you're so grateful to be free of the bonds of sin that you do them gladfully?

[Tex]

Originally Posted by jay santos

I completely and totally disagree with Waters in that post. But your version doesn't sound much different the way you preach it in many of your posts.

Maybe you don't understand how I "preach it" in many of my posts. Try coming up with some examples and asking questions, instead of speaking in accusatory generalities.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Tex

Maybe you don't understand how I "preach it" in many of my posts. Try coming up with some examples and asking questions, instead of speaking in accusatory generalities.

You are what you are. If I were to offer up examples and ask questions it would lead to a 250 post thread where you thought in your mind you successfully defended yourself, but to the rest of the world it's obvious where you really stand.

[All-American]

Maybe this helps.

D&C 45:3-5 recreates the judgment scene. Christ, as our advocate with the Father, argues our case and says why we should be allowed to return into the presence of the Father. From time to time, I ask members of the church what argument Christ will use to argue our case-- in other words, why, according to Christ, should we be saved? The answers I hear all emphasize our works; we were baptized, we were obedient, we paid tithing and were married in the temple, et cetera. His argument is as follows:

Listen to him who is the advocate with the Father, who is pleading your cause before him—
Saying: Father, behold the sufferings and death of him who did no sin, in whom thou wast well pleased; behold the blood of thy Son which was shed, the blood of him whom thou gavest that thyself might be glorified;
Wherefore, Father, spare these my brethren that believe on my name, that they may come unto me and have everlasting life.

HIS argument isn't that we deserve eternal life. The thing that earns eternal life is no work of ours, but the "sufferings and death of him who did no sin." Because of this, those who believe on the name of Christ are spared.

Grace allows Christ to save all those who are thus bound to him. Belief binds us to him. But belief is more than the modern diluted term indicates.

The epigram that marks the spot where King Leonidas and his 300 fell reads as follows:

Ὦ ξεῖν’, ἀγγέλλειν Λακεδαιμονίοις ὅτι τῇδε
κείμεθα, τοῖς κείνων ῥήμασι πειθόμενοι.

Translated, it reads:

Go tell the Spartans, oh stranger passing by
That here, obedient to their laws we lie.

The word for obedient, πειθόμενοι, comes from the greek "peitho." A root of "peitho" occurs some 55 times in the New Testament. When used as an active verb, it shows persuasion; for example, Acts 26:28-- "Almost thou persuadest me." When in the passive (as in the epigram above), it can mean "to be persuaded", as in Romans 8:38-- "for I am persuaded"; it can also mean "trust," as in Matthew 27:43-- "he trusted in God"-- or "believe," as in Acts 28:24-- "And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not." In all: it can mean to "be confident, believe, have confidence, misc, obey, persuade, trust."

But that's the small stuff. "Pisteuo" occurs 248 times in the New Testament, and 239 of those 248 times it is translated as "believe." The dictionary entry defines it as to "be committed to one's trust, be committed unto, put in trust with, believe; a believer; to commit to (one's) trust, commit unto, believed, believers, believes, believing, do, entrust, entrusted, entrusting, has faith." The noun form, "pistis," is the word most commonly translated as "faith," as throughout Hebrews 11. It also can mean obey, as in 1 Peter 2:7-8: "Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, and a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed." "Believe" in verse 7 is "pisteuo;" "disobedient" in verse seven and eight is "apisteuo" (the "a" prefex meaning "without, lacking, etc.").

So with both "peitho" and "pisteuo," there is an intrinsic tie between belief/faith and obedience. To the Hellenic mind, it seems, the one implied the other.

We are not saved by works, but by grace. Our works, then, are tokens of our belief in Christ. This belief in Christ enables us to receive his grace, which does 100% of the saving.

[JohnnyLingo]

Originally Posted by All-American

We are not saved by works, but by grace. Our works, then, are tokens of our belief in Christ. This belief in Christ enables us to receive his grace, which does 100% of the saving.

And the question I always ask when this statement is made is

What if we don't do works? We're not saved, right?

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by All-American

Maybe this helps.

D&C 45:3-5 recreates the judgment scene. Christ, as our advocate with the Father, argues our case and says why we should be allowed to return into the presence of the Father. From time to time, I ask members of the church what argument Christ will use to argue our case-- in other words, why, according to Christ, should we be saved? The answers I hear all emphasize our works; we were baptized, we were obedient, we paid tithing and were married in the temple, et cetera. His argument is as follows:

Listen to him who is the advocate with the Father, who is pleading your cause before him—
Saying: Father, behold the sufferings and death of him who did no sin, in whom thou wast well pleased; behold the blood of thy Son which was shed, the blood of him whom thou gavest that thyself might be glorified;
Wherefore, Father, spare these my brethren that believe on my name, that they may come unto me and have everlasting life.

HIS argument isn't that we deserve eternal life. The thing that earns eternal life is no work of ours, but the "sufferings and death of him who did no sin." Because of this, those who believe on the name of Christ are spared.

Grace allows Christ to save all those who are thus bound to him. Belief binds us to him. But belief is more than the modern diluted term indicates.

The epigram that marks the spot where King Leonidas and his 300 fell reads as follows:

Ὦ ξεῖν’, ἀγγέλλειν Λακεδαιμονίοις ὅτι τῇδε
κείμεθα, τοῖς κείνων ῥήμασι πειθόμενοι.

Translated, it reads:

Go tell the Spartans, oh stranger passing by
That here, obedient to their laws we lie.

The word for obedient, πειθόμενοι, comes from the greek "peitho." A root of "peitho" occurs some 55 times in the New Testament. When used as an active verb, it shows persuasion; for example, Acts 26:28-- "Almost thou persuadest me." When in the passive (as in the epigram above), it can mean "to be persuaded", as in Romans 8:38-- "for I am persuaded"; it can also mean "trust," as in Matthew 27:43-- "he trusted in God"-- or "believe," as in Acts 28:24-- "And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not." In all: it can mean to "be confident, believe, have confidence, misc, obey, persuade, trust."

But that's the small stuff. "Pisteuo" occurs 248 times in the New Testament, and 239 of those 248 times it is translated as "believe." The dictionary entry defines it as to "be committed to one's trust, be committed unto, put in trust with, believe; a believer; to commit to (one's) trust, commit unto, believed, believers, believes, believing, do, entrust, entrusted, entrusting, has faith." The noun form, "pistis," is the word most commonly translated as "faith," as throughout Hebrews 11. It also can mean obey, as in 1 Peter 2:7-8: "Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, and a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed." "Believe" in verse 7 is "pisteuo;" "disobedient" in verse seven and eight is "apisteuo" (the "a" prefex meaning "without, lacking, etc.").

So with both "peitho" and "pisteuo," there is an intrinsic tie between belief/faith and obedience. To the Hellenic mind, it seems, the one implied the other.

We are not saved by works, but by grace. Our works, then, are tokens of our belief in Christ. This belief in Christ enables us to receive his grace, which does 100% of the saving.

Hey you stole this from me! Just kidding. Good stuff AA.