Cheney's full-court press on Obama re: torture - Page 2 - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

Cali Coug · 05-11-2009, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tex

I am suggesting nothing of the sort. Rather, I believe the American people deserve all the available data, so as to make an informed decision about whether they think it was justified or not. Some will, some won't.

If the issue is as cut-and-dried as you think it is, releasing the evidence of its success will only underscore that it wasn't worth it. What are you afraid of?

What an amusingly ironic statement. "The evidence that it worked hasn't been released, therefore we can conclude that it didn't work."

That is exactly what you are suggesting. If it is torture (and it is), then whether or not it "works" is totally irrelevant in deciding whether to use it. By stating that people deserve this information in order to make an "informed decision," you are stating that such information may be determinative as to whether or not torture is acceptable (i.e., the ends justify the means).

I am not afraid of a release of the information at all. That said, the prior president deemed it classified, and this president has as well, which suggests it isn't safe for release at this time for some reason. I can live with that.

And yes, the information we have so far strongly indicates that torture doesn't work. You want us to accept that no information has been released at all, which isn't true. Cheney and Rice already cited at least one terror attack which was averted due to torturing KSM. Problem is that they cited the planned attack on Library Tower in LA, which Bush announced on television the government had discovered and stopped the attack ONE YEAR BEFORE KSM was even captured. CIA interrogators have said the waterboarding was not helpful. A report was released that the US spent over a year hunting down leads from a waterboarded subject, only to learn later that he made it all up so the torture would stop. John McCain, our nation's most famous tortured individual, has repeatedly said torture doesn't work and produces largely lies. Of course, once again, this is totally irrelevant, as torture is illegal and waterboarding is torture, so even if it worked 100% of the time, we still shouldn't do it.

Tex · 05-11-2009, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

That is exactly what you are suggesting. If it is torture (and it is), then whether or not it "works" is totally irrelevant in deciding whether to use it. By stating that people deserve this information in order to make an "informed decision," you are stating that such information may be determinative as to whether or not torture is acceptable (i.e., the ends justify the means).

This entire paragraph is predicated on the idea that the enhanced interrogation techniques are indisputably torture. Since that is not true, the rest collapses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

I am not afraid of a release of the information at all. That said, the prior president deemed it classified, and this president has as well, which suggests it isn't safe for release at this time for some reason. I can live with that.

Heh, what a shock. "It helps my guy politically, so I can live with that." You're so altruistic.

FYI: the prior president also deemed the recently released memos as classified.

Cali Coug · 05-11-2009, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tex

This entire paragraph is predicated on the idea that the enhanced interrogation techniques are indisputably torture. Since that is not true, the rest collapses.

It is true, and waterboarding is torture (which is what we are talking about). Stop using the phrase "enhanced interrogation techniques." If it makes you feel better to use that phrase, it is only because you know it shields you from the moral guilt you feel for supporting torture.

Quote:

Heh, what a shock. "It helps my guy politically, so I can live with that." You're so altruistic.

FYI: the prior president also deemed the recently released memos as classified.

Once again, it isn't a shield. It is torture no matter what happened or how efficacious the practice.

And FYI: the new president deemed the recently released memos as not classified. When he agrees the rest aren't classified, well- he can release them (it is totally within his perogative to disagree with his predecessor's decision, but in this case, they both seem to agree). If you agree with Bush's initial assessment that they are all classified, it seems you should be promoting that the new memos remain secret too.

MikeWaters · 05-11-2009, 08:29 PM

enhanced interrogation techniques - test

Tex · 05-11-2009, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

It is true, and waterboarding is torture (which is what we are talking about). Stop using the phrase "enhanced interrogation techniques." If it makes you feel better to use that phrase, it is only because you know it shields you from the moral guilt you feel for supporting torture.

Once again, it isn't a shield. It is torture no matter what happened or how efficacious the practice.

Again, some people disagree with you on whether enhanced interrogation techniques are torture. Just because you say they are doesn't make it so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

And FYI: the new president deemed the recently released memos as not classified. When he agrees the rest aren't classified, well- he can release them (it is totally within his perogative to disagree with his predecessor's decision, but in this case, they both seem to agree).

In the which case, I don't know why you bothered to cite Bush in the first place. It's only what Obama thinks is classified that seems to matter to you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

If you agree with Bush's initial assessment that they are all classified, it seems you should be promoting that the new memos remain secret too.

Which is what I said was probably my first preference.

Cali Coug · 05-11-2009, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tex

Again, some people disagree with you on whether enhanced interrogation techniques are torture. Just because you say they are doesn't make it so.

Some people disagree that the world is round, too. So? It isn't me saying it is torture that makes it torture. It is the prior position of the US government, treaty obligations, US court cases, tribunals held against those who have waterboarded, etc. This nation has a long legal history of deeming waterboarding torture. It wasn't until people like you came along with your mental gymnastics that we came up with "enhanced interrogation technique."

Quote:

In the which case, I don't know why you bothered to cite Bush in the first place. It's only what Obama thinks is classified that seems to matter to you.

Because what Bush thinks is all that seems to be relevant to you. He agreed with Obama that this is classfied.

Quote:

Which is what I said was probably my first preference.

You said it was your first preference only until Obama released the torture memos. After that, you said it was "only sensible" that the "good" information come out too. Of course, you then indicated that you didn't believe the end justifies the means, so that leaves you in no man's land right now. No point in releasing the information if the end doesn't justify the means.

Tex · 05-11-2009, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

Some people disagree that the world is round, too. So? It isn't me saying it is torture that makes it torture. It is the prior position of the US government, treaty obligations, US court cases, tribunals held against those who have waterboarded, etc. This nation has a long legal history of deeming waterboarding torture. It wasn't until people like you came along with your mental gymnastics that we came up with "enhanced interrogation technique."

Enhanced interrogation techniques actually encompass more than just waterboarding. The fact you're citing "the world is round" just underscores how ridiculously axiomatic you think your argument is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

Because what Bush thinks is all that seems to be relevant to you. He agreed with Obama that this is classfied.

You said it was your first preference only until Obama released the torture memos. After that, you said it was "only sensible" that the "good" information come out too.

That's right. That's what "first" means. As soon as Obama started manipulating classified information for political gain, it's only fair to level the playing field with all the data.

Cali Coug · 05-11-2009, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tex

Enhanced interrogation techniques actually encompass more than just waterboarding. The fact you're citing "the world is round" just underscores how ridiculously axiomatic you think your argument is.

This is axiomatic. Waterboarding=torture.

Quote:

That's right. That's what "first" means. As soon as Obama started manipulating classified information for political gain, it's only fair to level the playing field with all the data.

IOW, you now do believe the ends justify the means, despite your earlier statement to the contrary. Tough to keep up with you and your pretzel positions, especially when they change within an hour.