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View Poll Results: Great Apostasy? | |||
Yes, the Original Truth was fully revealed and lost through the machinations of men | 7 | 46.67% | |
Yes the Pristine Church was perfect and corrupted by orthodox | 2 | 13.33% | |
No, the early Church was in its infancy and lacked direction | 2 | 13.33% | |
No the early Church had priesthood keys which were lost, but did not result in a great apostasy | 4 | 26.67% | |
Voters: 15. You may not vote on this poll |
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07-04-2008, 07:13 PM | #1 |
Assistant to the Regional Manager
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Was there a Great Apostasy?
Mormons have long accepted as a cultural piece of truth that some "Great Apostasy" from original pristine truth occurred after the First Century. Seattle mockingly has pointed out the absurdities of the proposition.
Do you believe it's (a) still taught or (b) a correct principle?
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07-05-2008, 12:36 AM | #2 | |
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Quote:
It is interesting that somebody such as Talmadge whom I generally like and respect would pen his "Great Apostasy". Even by his day, there was plenty of German research disabusing of the silly notion that Christianity had anything in bulk that was pure. It seems to me that Christ spent the bulk of his adult life preaching faith, repentance, baptism for the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Ghost. As no bureaucratic structure existed, it appears odd he would have spent much time delineating a future organizational structure, when the apostles couldn't even understand a physical resurrection. Agnostics believe Christ was more a failed apocalyptic Jewish preacher whom others held up to be the Messiah in light of political and social concerns. These past three or four years I've spent not an inconsiderable time reading research into early Christianity, and discovered the traditional notions often purveyed within the Church to be misplaced or untrue. It seems we continue this false message because it creates a better contrast for our message, "you're wrong, we're right," because "they lost it all, and we got it all back" is the simple message we'd prefer to convey.
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Ἓν οἶδα ὅτι οὐδὲν οἶδα Last edited by Archaea; 07-05-2008 at 12:53 AM. |
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07-05-2008, 07:21 PM | #3 |
Senior Member
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Arch, your answers are somewhat convoluted.
You characterize the apostasy as a loss of truth. The apostasy was a loss truth than it was a rejection of authority. Another common translation for the greek word "apostasia" is "mutiny." Rejection of truth would be better classified as "heresy."
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εν αρχη ην ο λογος Last edited by All-American; 07-05-2008 at 07:24 PM. |
07-06-2008, 06:04 AM | #4 |
Join Date: Jan 2006
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I'll pass on this poll.
The notion of a great apostasy is a lot like when Hitchins says religion has no good purpose at all and just contaminates everything. How could a fair minded student of history not acknowledge that "Christianity" is a but for cause of Western Civilization? Is Western Civilization really such a thoroughly terrible thing? I know Hitchins doesn't believe that. Tom Paine is his idol. But though Tom Paine was an atheist, he was a product of the civilization that Christianity in many respects created. Now, when we talk about "Christianity" in this context, we are talking about the very form of apostate Christianity condemned by Talmage. The problem is that if you pull one strand as important as Christianity from the tapestry of Western Civilization, maybe the whole things comes apart. Anyway, maybe you get something much worse. There are worse things than Western Civilization. Agreed? There is this notion that some say has been supported by the Dead Sea scrolls that early on there were two branches of Christianity, one more Jewish and occult and ascetic (they didn't drink wine, etc.), and the other infused with Greek philosphy and culture, and projecting to gentiles. James (Jesus' brother) and Paul have been identified as the heads of each branch. The extinction of James' Christianity and the spectacular, world changing success of Paul's might be characterized by some as an apostasy from the original pure form of Christianity, I suppose. But what would the other Christianity, James' Christianity, have led us to? I shudder to think. Anyway, as FARMS has noted, great apostasy=Hellenization of Christianity. I submit you can't take the Greek out of Christianity and wind up with the United States of America, just as you can't take Christianity out of Europe and wind up with the U.S.A. The doctrine of great apostasy just doesn't make any sense from a non-eccliesiastical, historical perspective. It's gibberish. But I understand you had to have had an apostasy for a "restoration" to make any sense.
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07-06-2008, 06:35 AM | #5 | |
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Quote:
Methinks you're falling into the same trap as Arch, though perhaps in a different sense. I don't believe you are correctly identifying what we believe was lost, nor what it is that is being restored.
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07-06-2008, 06:52 AM | #6 |
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What do you believe? Cite please.
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Interrupt all you like. We're involved in a complicated story here, and not everything is quite what it seems to be. —Paul Auster |
07-06-2008, 01:18 PM | #7 | |
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Quote:
Paine was a product of the false Christian Dogmas taught in his era. He simply couldn't fall for the same stuff that Joseph Smith failed to grasp a generation later.
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07-06-2008, 06:15 PM | #8 |
Senior Member
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Who am I supposed to cite on the matter of what I believe? Am I not an expert enough in that particular field?
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07-06-2008, 06:19 PM | #9 | |
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Quote:
What do you believe Church members actually mean or should mean when they use that misnomer?
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07-06-2008, 08:37 PM | #10 | |
Senior Member
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Quote:
It's not a misnomer at all. The definition, from the middle Liddell: 1. a defection, revolt; 2. departure from. The loss of priesthood authority IS the great apostasy.
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