Have LDS members changed?

[SeattleUte]

The posts from BDB and Solon a few weeks ago about how Heber J. Grant asked all LDS to vote against repeal of prohibition, and a majority rejected his request and Utah became the state that cast the clinching vote for repeal, has stuck with me. I can't remember when I've read something more surprising about LDS culture. It's surprising because I don't think that would happen now on any issue. The leades speak, and virtually all active LDS do what they say. That mantra is repeated here all the time. Ironically, BDB posted about the prohibition situation as an example of why LDS must always do as they're told, like children.

Do you agree with me that today the prohibition vote would go dramatically the other way if the prophet gave the same instruction? If so, why have LDS stopped thinking for themselves and acting per their own consciences?

[ute4ever]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

...has stuck with me.

There's a real fucking surprise.

[Mormon Red Death]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

The posts from BDB and Solon a few weeks ago about how Heber J. Grant asked all LDS to vote against repeal of prohibition, and a majority rejected his request and Utah became the state that cast the clinching vote for repeal, has stuck with me. I can't remember when I've read something more surprising about LDS culture. It's surprising because I don't think that would happen now on any issue. The leades speak, and virtually all active LDS do what they say. That mantra is repeated here all the time. Ironically, BDB posted about the prohibition situation as an example of why LDS must always do as they're told, like children.

Do you agree with me that today the prohibition vote would go dramatically the other way if the prophet gave the same instruction? If so, why have LDS stopped thinking for themselves and acting per their own consciences?

Its probably because we are the borg.... "YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED"

[Mormon Red Death]

in case seattle ute doesnt know what the borg is

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borg_(Star_Trek)

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Mormon Red Death

Its probably because we are the borg.... "YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED"

I didn't want to influence the discussion. But honestly I think it's because modernity and secularism have become increasingly potent and pervasive and LDS feel more threatened by it, and more lost.

[Mormon Red Death]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

I didn't want to influence the discussion. But honestly I think it's because modernity and secularism have become increasingly potent and pervasive and LDS feel more threatened by it, and more lost.

explain more of what you are thinking here. I think in general you are correct. I think however, its more of the fact that we have gotten fat and lazy. It much easier to let the church leaders do the thinking for you. combine that with 180 years of lessons about zions camp... singing follow the prophet etc... and you have a people that think they will be blessed just by being obedient.

[Solon]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

The posts from BDB and Solon a few weeks ago about how Heber J. Grant asked all LDS to vote against repeal of prohibition, and a majority rejected his request and Utah became the state that cast the clinching vote for repeal, has stuck with me. I can't remember when I've read something more surprising about LDS culture. It's surprising because I don't think that would happen now on any issue. The leades speak, and virtually all active LDS do what they say. That mantra is repeated here all the time. Ironically, BDB posted about the prohibition situation as an example of why LDS must always do as they're told, like children.

Do you agree with me that today the prohibition vote would go dramatically the other way if the prophet gave the same instruction? If so, why have LDS stopped thinking for themselves and acting per their own consciences?

This shocked the hell out of me too. The vote wasn't even close, and Utah was probably more heavily LDS, percentage-wise, 75 years ago than it is today. I was also surprised that some LDS leadership seemed publicly divided (according to the Alexander article).

My father told me (and Quinn wrote a similar sentiment in Extensions of Power, pg. 363) that until the 1950s, anyone referring to "the prophet" meant Joseph Smith. During David O. McKay's presidency, "the prophet" came to denote the current LDS president.

I wonder if similar forces account for these events.

[LA Ute]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

Do you agree with me that today the prohibition vote would go dramatically the other way if the prophet gave the same instruction? If so, why have LDS stopped thinking for themselves and acting per their own consciences?

Your question assumes facts not in evidence, counselor. But leaving that objection aside, the LDS Church is not a static organization. It is hard to compare the membership of today with that of the 1930s, 1890s, or 1830s. The people are different in so many ways; their environment is different; the issues confronting them are different.

But let me now return to your question: Please convince me that members of the LDS Church have "stopped thinking for themselves and acting per their own consciences." You've taken on a huge burden with that rather sweeping statement.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by LA Ute

Your question assumes facts not in evidence, counselor. But leaving that objection aside, the LDS Church is not a static organization. It is hard to compare the membership of today with that of the 1930s, 1890s, or 1830s. The people are different in so many ways; their environment is different; the issues confronting them are different.

But let me now return to your question: Please convince me that members of the LDS Church have "stopped thinking for themselves and acting per their own consciences." You've taken on a huge burden with that rather sweeping statement.

I think we're talking about two different things. I posted kind of a push poll, which I think has caused us to be like two ships passing in the night. The predicate for my statement that you challenged was the fact that today, if the LDS prophet told members to vote a certain way in a civil election, they would fall in line by a huge majority. Whatever the issue happened to be. Does anyone doubt that? I'd be surprised if you do.

Beyond elections, LDS also get married young, women give up careers, women with careers feel racked with guilt, parents of gay children oppose gay marriage, etc. all because they are trying to do what the prophet tells them to do.

That's why I was so surprised by the members rejecting Heber J. Grant's injunction and by a landslide voting to repeal prohibition. (It's no small irony, is it, that prohibition is today almost universally considered a failed experimiment. The members were right, and the propeht was wrong, at least according to the history books and the modern consensus, with the benefit of seventy years of reflection. Still, apparently Gordon B. Hinkley used this event as an object lesson on why the members must always do what the propeht says! What strange precedent to cite. This alone evinces divergence from the mainstream in America.)

Now, what I think you're challenging is my conclusion that because LDS do whatever the prophet tells them to do they don't think for themselves. I think that is more of a value judgment than anything else, and I agree I couldn't get you to agree with me that my conclusion follows inexorably from my predicate fact.

By the way, it occurs to me that Mormons also seem more honogenous now in their vews. Remember when Utah had Frank Moss, a liberal democrat as Senator, and Gunn Mckay, a democratic member of the House, and Calvin Rampton, a democratic governor, all at the same time? I think this increased homogeneity must go hand in hand with the increased tendency to do whatever the propeht tells you to do.

[il Padrino Ute]

Seattle, why do you dodge every challenge presented you to prove your comments?

Quit being a pussy and prove that LDS members don't think for themselves. LA Ute called you out for the idiotic comment and is correct when he says the burden of proof is on you.