Obama looking to storm through to the White House!!!!!

[NorCal Cat]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

Seriously. Screw helping people if it costs money. I have seen the light. Money > people in need.

Ever hear of helping people help THEMSELVES?! If you want to give your money to help people, go right ahead. No one is stopping you. Go pay for that homeless person's health insurance.

[woot]

Originally Posted by NorCal Cat

Ever hear of helping people help THEMSELVES?! If you want to give your money to help people, go right ahead. No one is stopping you. Go pay for that homeless person's health insurance.

yes, because that's obviously so very effective.

[NorCal Cat]

Originally Posted by woot

That's not true and you know it. That's just stupid logic. If a terrorist organization tried to take over France, they would fight with everything they had, and they would get help from a bunch of other countries, including us. That is how it's supposed to work, and that's how the US became independent to start with: by fighting and asking for help. That the US gets bored waiting for something like that to happen and decides to invade countries without the ability or inclination to attack us is where we go wrong.

Yeah, sure they would. That's why they let the country get over run by muslims coming into their country illegally from the four corners of the earth, without caring who they are, are where their sympathies and loyalties lie.

[myboynoah]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

He will give a political answer, just like they all will. You can't win an election by promising to raise taxes, so nobody does it. Obama has promised a tax cut for the middle-class, so he will have to deliver one. That is how you get elected. Ask Bush I, Bush II, Clinton and Reagan. They all promised the same thing.

He will indicate that we have to cut out the pork projects, just like they all will. He will say that we need a new era of fiscal responsibility, just like they all will.

I really don't know what you are after here.

Wow. Suddenly I'm having a hard time understanding your excitement. He's just going to be like the rest of 'em. I thought he was going to bring real change.

Then better we go with someone with more experience.

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by NorCal Cat

Ever hear of helping people help THEMSELVES?! If you want to give your money to help people, go right ahead. No one is stopping you. Go pay for that homeless person's health insurance.

If you are LDS, I suppose the more pertinent question is why don't you want to help them?

"Mosiah 4:16": 16 And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish.

"Mosiah 4:17": 17 Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just --

"Mosiah 4:18": 18 But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God.

"Mosiah 4:19": 19 For behold, are we not all beggars? Do we not all depend upon the same Being, even God, for all the substance which we have, for both food and raiment, and for gold, and for silver, and for all the riches which we have of every kind?

"Mosiah 4:20": 20 And behold, even at this time, ye have been calling on his name, and begging for a remission of your sins. And has he suffered that ye have begged in vain? Nay; he has poured out his Spirit upon you, and has caused that your hearts should be filled with joy, and has caused that your mouths should be stopped that ye could not find utterance, so exceedingly great was your joy.

"Mosiah 4:21": 21 And now, if God, who has created you, on whom you are dependent for your lives and for all that ye have and are, doth grant unto you whatsoever ye ask that is right, in faith, believing that ye shall receive, O then, how ye ought to impart of the substance that ye have one to another.

"Mosiah 4:22": 22 And if ye judge the man who putteth up his petition to you for your substance that he perish not, and condemn him, how much more just will be your condemnation for withholding your substance, which doth not belong to you but to God, to whom also your life belongeth; and yet ye put up no petition, nor repent of the thing which thou hast done.

"Mosiah 4:23": 23 I say unto you, wo be unto that man, for his substance shall perish with him; and now, I say these things unto those who are rich as pertaining to the things of this world.

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

As much as I can afford. We are consistently strapped for cash, particularly with my new job, but we always find ways to donate money, and I never complain about paying my taxes.

I believe taxes are part of my social responsibility to others. People who claim they are self-reliant are full of crap, and they know it. They are arrogant and unwilling to recognize the many hands who have assisted them along the way, and they, ironically, frequently refuse help to others on the premise that they think others should be doing more to help themselves.

Taxes, by and large, support the rich in every nation. Those who benefit the most, economically, from a stable democracy are the property owners. The more property you own, the more you benefit from the system. Transportation, security, stability all benefit the rich more than anyone else because the rich have the most to lose if the system falls apart. For the rich to then pretend that they gain nothing from something like national health care would be amusing, if it weren't so offensive.

Fair enough about how much you'd be willing to spend. But don't condemn me because I'm not willing to do it. But I still doubt you'd be willing to pay extra to pay your share and even more to pay my share.

What do I have to gain from national health care? I ask that because I don't live in the liberal Utopian world where everything can be provided if I pay more taxes.

Socialized medicine has worked so well in England that the government is asking women to not have their babies in the hospital because there isn't enough money.

Socialized medicine has worked so well in other European countries that when my brother-in-law's in-laws were serving as a Mission President in Spain and the wife needed surgery to remove an inflamed appendix, they were told that she would have to wait for 8 months because she couldn't schedule her surgery until then and when the time came (if her appendix hadn't ruptured by then) they would have to provide the surgeon all of the required medical equipment - from the scalpel to make the incision to the surgical suture string to close the incision to the anesthesia that they had to purchase at the pharmacy in the hospital, etc. so he could perform the surgery. They and the Church decided that it would be cheaper to fly her back to the US and the private coverage they had would take care of it for substantially less.

I guess I really ought to reevaluate my thoughts on national health care, eh?

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by NorCal Cat

Yeah, sure they would. That's why they let the country get over run by muslims coming into their country illegally from the four corners of the earth, without caring who they are, are where their sympathies and loyalties lie.

Good thing we don't let people run us over by coming into the country illegally, without knowing who they are????

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by il Padrino Ute

Fair enough about how much you'd be willing to spend. But don't condemn me because I'm not willing to do it. But I still doubt you'd be willing to pay extra to pay your share and even more to pay my share.

What do I have to gain from national health care? I ask that because I don't live in the liberal Utopian world where everything can be provided if I pay more taxes.

Socialized medicine has worked so well in England that the government is asking women to not have their babies in the hospital because there isn't enough money.

Socialized medicine has worked so well in other European countries that when my brother-in-law's in-laws were serving as a Mission President in Spain and the wife needed surgery to remove an inflamed appendix, they were told that she would have to wait for 8 months because she couldn't schedule her surgery until then and when the time came (if her appendix hadn't ruptured by then) they would have to provide the surgeon all of the required medical equipment - from the scalpel to make the incision to the surgical suture string to close the incision to the anesthesia that they had to purchase at the pharmacy in the hospital, etc. so he could perform the surgery. They and the Church decided that it would be cheaper to fly her back to the US and the private coverage they had would take care of it for substantially less.

I guess I really ought to reevaluate my thoughts on national health care, eh?

Why have you conflated national health coverage with socialized medicine? Are you so unimaginative that you can't think of any way in which people here could have health insurance and yet still maintain a free market medical system?

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

Planning on self-reliance does not, as many Americans have found, actually mean becoming self-reliant. To pretend that it is all within your control is absurd and dishonest.

Perhaps, but I'm willing to do everything I can so I don't have to rely on others.

To not do ones part to take care of ones self is even more absurd and more dishonest.

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

Why have you conflated national health coverage with socialized medicine? Are you so unimaginative that you can't think of any way in which people here could have health insurance and yet still maintain a free market medical system?

What is the difference between socialized medicine and national health care? If there is a difference, I honestly don't see it.