The Church is smart

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Solon

There are plenty of instances of "god-ordained" bigotry, if you believe in that sort of thing. Sometimes religions aren't very "moral" in contemporaneous or future contexts.

In my opinion, this is just another brick in that wall.

I assumed we were operating from a common definition of what is moral. If you want to say moral means anything any religion or person ever defined it as, then sure.

But that doesn't strike me as much of an argument.

[Solon]

Originally Posted by Tex

I assumed we were operating from a common definition of what is moral. If you want to say moral means anything any religion or person ever defined it as, then sure.

But that doesn't strike me as much of an argument.

It wasn't my point.

My point was, regardless of the "morality" of the issue, the church's is a bigoted position.

[RockyBalboa]

Originally Posted by Solon

It wasn't my point.

My point was, regardless of the "morality" of the issue, the church's is a bigoted position.

Another deliberate dishonest statement.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Solon

It wasn't my point.

My point was, regardless of the "morality" of the issue, the church's is a bigoted position.

I know. And my point was, moral rightness and bigotry are mutually exclusive.

Your only response to that is to play with the definition of "moral."

[Solon]

Originally Posted by Tex

I know. And my point was, moral rightness and bigotry are mutually exclusive.

Your only response to that is to play with the definition of "moral."

I don't think we're all that far apart here.

I think there are plenty of examples in Hebrew / Christian history where God or God's prophets promoted bigotry, whether it was against people of the neighboring tribes, evildoers, heretics, Jews, Muslims, Native Americans, African-Americans etc. But is an "amoral" action done with the stamp of approval of God / God's representative in fact moral? It's obviously arguable either way, but the bigoted position remains.

At least, that's how I see it.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Solon

I don't think we're all that far apart here.

I think there are plenty of examples in Hebrew / Christian history where God or God's prophets promoted bigotry, whether it was against people of the neighboring tribes, evildoers, heretics, Jews, Muslims, Native Americans, African-Americans etc. But is an "amoral" action done with the stamp of approval of God / God's representative in fact moral? It's obviously arguable either way, but the bigoted position remains.

At least, that's how I see it.

But that strikes me as self-contradictory. In my opinion, a bigoted act cannot be a morally right act. It's inseparable. If God magically makes an act moral, why can't he magically make it not bigoted too? If we're going to get anywhere in this discussion, we have to settle on a common definition for the sake of argument.

Let's take a clear example: murder. The term connotes immorality (dictionary: "the crime of unlawfully killing a person"). Committed under certain circumstances however (say, in self-defense), it becomes moral. It's no longer murder. It's the same, in my mind, with bigotry.

Does that mean every act committed in the name of morality actually is moral? No. Which is why we have to agree on some meaning for the term, or discussion is really useless. I'm not interested in debating how the term has been abused (or changed) over the years, but what it means for me, now.

[Solon]

Originally Posted by Tex

But that strikes me as self-contradictory. In my opinion, a bigoted act cannot be a morally right act. It's inseparable. If God magically makes an act moral, why can't he magically make it not bigoted too? If we're going to get anywhere in this discussion, we have to settle on a common definition for the sake of argument.

Let's take a clear example: murder. The term connotes immorality (dictionary: "the crime of unlawfully killing a person"). Committed under certain circumstances however (say, in self-defense), it becomes moral. It's no longer murder. It's the same, in my mind, with bigotry.

Does that mean every act committed in the name of morality actually is moral? No. Which is why we have to agree on some meaning for the term, or discussion is really useless. I'm not interested in debating how the term has been abused (or changed) over the years, but what it means for me, now.

A good analysis. I think we're just discussing semantics and the issue is going to boil down to belief in divine approval or not. Not the best route for discussion but thanks for making this issue clear for me.

[LA Ute]

Originally Posted by Solon

Rocky, it is bigotry and it's not dishonest to say so.

Okay, I guess that ends the discussion. This is a question that is simply beyond discussion. Already resolved. Over. Right?

[LA Ute]

Kate Kendall, by the way, is a Utah law grad and a former Mormon.
_______________________________________________

Proposition 8 opponents seek to invalidate measure
arojas@sacbee.com
Published Wednesday, Nov. 05, 2008

While not conceding defeat, opponents of the ballot measure that would end same-sex marriage in California filed a petition with the California Supreme Court to invalidate the proposed constitutional amendment.

The petition charges that Proposition 8 is invalid because the initiative process was improperly used in an attempt to undo the state constitution's core commitment to equality for everyone.

The Associated Press this morning reported that Californians adopted the measure to overturn the Supreme Court's decision in May that gave gay couples the right to wed.

But opponents would not concede the outcome, despite vote totals showing supporters of Proposition 8 with a 400,000-vote advantage.

Kate Kendall, executive director of the National Center for Lesbian Rights, said 3 million to 4 million ballots remain uncounted statewide.

Today's petition was filed by the American Civil Liberties Union, Lambda Legal and the National Center for Lesbian Rights.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by LA Ute

Today's petition was filed by the American Civil Liberties Union, Lambda Legal and the National Center for Lesbian Rights.

IIRC, Lambda Legal was the group that took Dale all the way to the US Supreme Court.

But shhh. Don't tell Lebowski that the gay community has an agenda.