Enough of the Infalliblity Nonsense

[Indy Coug]

I've never had to personally deal with

1. Denying blacks the priesthood
2. Polygamy
3. Prop 8
4. Moving to Iron County
5. United Order

or so forth. There is NOTHING I personally have had to do as a member of the church when I've tried to follow the prophet's counsel that I regret doing. Therefore, from a strictly utilitarian, pragmatic standpoint, the prophet has been infallible. As a result, I take the default position that whatever the prophet says is going to be the truth. I reserve my divine right as a child of God to take up the matter personally with my Father in Heaven should I ever encounter something that may make me morally conflicted.

I fully recognize that there have been instances where things they have said or done may not have squared with the truth or the will of the Lord, but they have had zero direct impact in my practice of my religion.

There are plenty of times where I fail to comply with the counsel of the prophet, but that is a shortcoming on my part rather than being morally opposed to counsel I believed to be wrong.

[Flystripper]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

The question is how do any of us really know that the prophet has been wrong on polygamy and Prop 8? Has God authoritatively weighed in on this?

Well since God only speaks "authoritatively" through his prophets, the arguement become circular.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Flystripper

Well since God only speaks "authoritatively" through his prophets, the arguement become circular.

You state those items as a given and I'm just wondering how you can state them as a given. If we are to KNOW if a prophet has been wrong and as a result use those instances as proof, don't you need something to back that up?

I can easily see how some people may have moral reservations about those issues, but I fail to see how the prophet's stance on those issues (since we don't possess the same information they possess) is clearly wrong. At best/worst, it's uncertain.

[FMCoug]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

The question is how do any of us really know that the prophet has been wrong on polygamy and Prop 8? Has God authoritatively weighed in on this?

Clearly we don't, nor can we. But my point really boils down to "who cares". The prophet is human, thus he does/will make mistakes. Only the most immature church member would place Godlike infallibility on the prophet.

But back to the point ... who cares? Most prophetic counsel falls in these 2 buckets:

1. Makes sense from a logical standpoint (maybe 80% is like this).
2. Maybe doesn't make sense but is not a moral decision and is just not that big a deal. I view stuff like white shirts, facial hair, only one set of earrings, etc. like this. Do I think those things are great sins and will cause me to fall into apostasy? No. Does it hurt me to follow the counsel? No. So why not just follow it and be blessed for following the prophet?

The 3rd bucket is tricker and like Indy, is not somethign I have ever had to deal with. Counsel on weighty matters where I have a moral problem with it. My only thoughts on that woudl be that a) it's a rare thing and b) This is why we have the right to personal revelation.

[Flystripper]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

You state those items as a given and I'm just wondering how you can state them as a given. If we are to KNOW if a prophet has been wrong and as a result use those instances as proof, don't you need something to back that up?

To be fair, those items shouldn't be stated as a given. Those items are my opinion based on personal spiritual confirmation of such visceral nature as to leave me little doubt. I fully acknowledge others have not experienced what I have experienced. To be intellectually honest, I leave the door open that my experiences have lead me to incorrect conclusions but that door is only open a crack.

[SteelBlue]

Originally Posted by pelagius

T Blue you clearly don't understand my post. Your response here makes no sense relative to the implications of my original model.

Yeah, this may be the understatement of the day. Remember that Sesame Street bit when we were kids "one of these things is not like the others, one of these things just isn't the same..."

[ERCougar]

Originally Posted by SteelBlue

Yeah, this may be the understatement of the day. Remember that Sesame Street bit when we were kids "one of these things is not like the others, one of these things just isn't the same..."

Outstanding characterization of T Blue. Sometimes I wonder if he's just a brilliant caracaturist. But then I think, "he's just too stupid to pull that off". But then I think, "maybe that's all part of his act". But then I think, "nah, he's just too stupid."

[T Blue]

Originally Posted by pelagius

T Blue you clearly don't understand my post. Your response here makes no sense relative to the implications of my original model.

I think you don't understand the implications of your post.

Yes my response makes perfect sense when it comes to the 10-20 percent of the time the prophet is supposedly wrong according to your model.

Or are you saying that the only parts the prophet is wrong on is the Prop 8, proclamation to the family type documents?

According to your model they would be wrong 10-20 percent of the time, all of the time, no exceptions.

Are you now going to post that there is an exception, or tell me that I didn't understand what you were trying to say?

Maybe you and Er Coug can formulate a new model with graphs and pictures so those of us who aren't as smart as you two can follow along?

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by T Blue

I think you don't understand the implications of your post.

Yes my response makes perfect sense when it comes to the 10-20 percent of the time the prophet is supposedly wrong according to your model.

Or are you saying that the only parts the prophet is wrong on is the Prop 8, proclamation to the family type documents?

According to your model they would be wrong 10-20 percent of the time, all of the time, no exceptions.

Are you now going to post that there is an exception, or tell me that I didn't understand what you were trying to say?

Maybe you and Er Coug can formulate a new model with graphs and pictures so those of us who aren't as smart as you two can follow along?

maybe you can just go away.

[T Blue]

Awww..... Did Jay get his panties hurt?

Sorry to have called out some of your pals as full of crap, now can we have a big group hug and just remember that Jesus said to love everyone.