Illogic of Prop. 8

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by exUte

relationship and shoves it up the noses of those who think that a gay lifestyle is either immoral or unnatural.

Signed Thomas S. Monson

[Tex]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

says Tex to Matthew Shepard.

I would ask what that has to do with anything, but you didn't bring it up because it was relevant.

Originally Posted by Flystripper

It isn't specious to those that are gay.

Of course not. They will leverage whatever guilt they can to try and get what they want. I understand they want us to think it's the same thing, but it's not.

And to be clear, there are lots of black leaders and average everyday black Americans on record as feeling the same way.

[Flystripper]

Originally Posted by Tex

I would ask what that has to do with anything, but you didn't bring it up because it was relevant.



Of course not. They will leverage whatever guilt they can to try and get what they want. I understand they want us to think it's the same thing, but it's not.

And to be clear, there are lots of black leaders and average everyday black Americans on record as feeling the same way.

Of course it isn't the same. No repression is exactly the same. The repression of women isn't same as the repression of blacks. However, just because the two protected classes are different it doesn't mean one can't draw any parallels between the two. Just because gays have not endured the exact same discrimination as blacks, does not mean valid comparisons can't be drawn between the discrimination of blacks and the discrimination of gays.

Seperate but equal is exactly what most proponents of prop 8 argue. Seperate but equal is part of what blacks faced in their civil rights reform. Are the 2 situation exactly the same? No, but they are close enough to draw a valid comparison with regards to this issue IMHO.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Flystripper

Of course it isn't the same. No repression is exactly the same. The repression of women isn't same as the repression of blacks. However, just because the two protected classes are different it doesn't mean one can't draw any parallels between the two. Just because gays have not endured the exact same discrimination as blacks, it does not mean valid comparisons can't be drawn between the discrimination of blacks and the discrimination of gays.

Seperate but equal is exactly what most proponents of prop 8 argue. Seperate but equal is part of what blacks faced in their civil rights reform. Are the 2 situation exactly the same? No, but they are close enough to draw a valid comparison with regards to this issue IMHO.

Well everyone's entitled to their opinion. I think the "similarities" are weak and disparate enough to nearly totally void any meaningful conclusions that could be drawn therefrom. I might just as well talk about how my plight at being a minority (a Mormon) is similar to the black civil rights movement.

[Flystripper]

Originally Posted by Tex

Well everyone's entitled to their opinion. I think the "similarities" are weak and disparate enough to nearly totally void any meaningful conclusions that could be drawn therefrom. I might just as well talk about how my plight at being a minority (a Mormon) is similar to the black civil rights movement.

What similarities would you draw? Is there a seperate but equal issue that has effected you as a Mormon? Just curious. You said it was easy.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Flystripper

What similarities would you draw? Is there a seperate but equal issue that has effected you as a Mormon? Just curious. You said it was easy.

Huh? I didn't say it was easy. It's NOT easy. That's the point. There's not many.

[Flystripper]

Originally Posted by Tex

Huh? I didn't say it was easy. It's NOT easy. That's the point. There's not many.

I missread what you wrote, you didn't say it was easy.

Drawing the comparison of the current mormon plight (if there even is one and I don't think you really think there is) would indeed be difficult. I agree.

However, it is not as seemingly difficult to draw comparisons between gay marriage prohibition and Plessy v Ferguson. Are they exactly the same? No.

I don't think it cheapens what blacks have overcome in this country to draw this comparison over very real discrimination that gays face, rather it acknowledges that the standard from which discrimination is measured in this country begins with what the black community has historically faced.

In 1955 much of white America could not understand why the blacks were so up in arms about wanting to ride in the front of the bus. In 2008 much of straight America does not understand why the gays are so up in arms about no being able to marry. I am sorry if the comparison offends you, but i still stand by notion that while the comparison isn't perfect, it still fits.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Flystripper

In 1955 much of white America could not understand why the blacks were so up in arms about wanting to ride in the front of the bus. In 2008 much of straight America does not understand why the gays are so up in arms about no being able to marry. I am sorry if the comparison offends you, but i still stand by notion that while the comparison isn't perfect, it still fits.

It doesn't offend me, and as I said, you're entitled to your opinion. I don't expect my brief comments to change it. But I also stand by mine, that it's a specious comparison. And reducing the civil rights movement to which part of the bus one sits in is near equally so.

Are there separate water fountains for gays? Restrooms? Are there grocery stores, pool halls, doctors offices that post signs, "no gays allowed"? Do they have separate, substandard schools? Are there laws prohibiting gays and straights from marrying? Are gays barred from voting? From holding public office?

And what about homosexuality itself. We're still VERY conflicted as a nation about where it exactly comes from. Does one choose it or not? Is it a behavior or is it a condition? No one asks these questions about race. Tell me, can you identify a gay person at birth?

I recognize there are some very limited and highly specific examples of so-called discrimination, such as in the military and in this case, marriage. But the plight of gays bears almost no resemblance to the plight of blacks, which is why--I reiterate--that many blacks themselves take umbrage at the usurpation of their movement.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Tex

I don't really want to wade into this discussion, but after reading this I did want to reiterate that I find the comparison of the gay man's plight to the black man's to be entirely specious.

Tex, you only say this because of your ingrained prejudice against gays as sinners. I'm sure Mark E. Peterson would assure us that the comparison of "the black man's plight" to the Jews' "is entirely specious." Why? Of course because Peterson believed blacks were pre-existant sinners who got what was coming to them. You're no different. But since gays by all appearances don't choose to be gay, their plight is very comparable to blacks'.

(By the way, your usage of "black MAN's plight" is sexist and archaic in and of itself, and thereby speaks volumes.)

[SoCalCoug]

Originally Posted by Tex

Well everyone's entitled to their opinion. I think the "similarities" are weak and disparate enough to nearly totally void any meaningful conclusions that could be drawn therefrom. I might just as well talk about how my plight at being a minority (a Mormon) is similar to the black civil rights movement.

What are the important differences between the two, then? I really am curious about what you see as so dissimilar between the two situation so as to make them non-analogous.

Edit: I didn't see your post above before posting this. Unless you feel that one is a complete answer, I am interested in any further response you have to this.