Screed on Infallibility - Page 5 - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

Tex · 07-08-2008, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam

Do you really believe that the man driving the wagon containing the ark, who when the oxen stumbled put back his had from the drivers seat to ensure that the ark didn't tumble out of the wagon, was struck dead by God for doing so? Really?

And even if this happened, how is breaking a direct command of the Lord regarding the care of the ark (see Lev. 16 and Num. 4) applicable to my questioning ever-changing policy dictates from Salt Lake City?

Your use of the Uzzah/Ark metaphor shows how unthinking your obedience has become.

The term "steadying the ark" has long been a good metaphor for folks who try to step outside the bounds of their priesthood authority and artificially guide the church on their own, sometimes with the best of intentions.

You don't like Uzzah? There are plenty of lesser known examples ... Saul offering sacrifice because Samuel was a little late; Miriam and Aaron thinking they should be as powerful as Moses. Sterling McMurrin.

There's always a few of you around, self-appointed watchers of the watchmen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by il Padrino Ute

With all due respect, Adam, you have no idea what you're saying.

The guy didn't get out of his seat, his face melted as did everyone else's face that looked at the ark when it was opened.

Sheesh.

Very nice. Even funnier that Adam didn't get it.

Jeff Lebowski · 07-08-2008, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam

Sorry. Typo. He put back his "hand" from the driver's seat and steadied the ark. I didn't mean to imply that he got out of his seat. Not that I see how it would matter. Some commentaries say he was walking along side the ark and not driving. The scriptures aren't clear.

And where do you get his face melting? The account in 1 Sam 6 doesn't have melting faces and neither does the Uzzah account in 2 Sam 6.

How else did I get it wrong?

You obviously don't watch enough Spielberg movies.

il Padrino Ute · 07-08-2008, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam

Sorry. Typo. He put back his "hand" from the driver's seat and steadied the ark. I didn't mean to imply that he got out of his seat. Not that I see how it would matter. Some commentaries say he was walking along side the ark and not driving. The scriptures aren't clear.

And where do you get his face melting? The account in 1 Sam 6 doesn't have melting faces and neither does the Uzzah account in 2 Sam 6.

How else did I get it wrong?

Sorry, it was a lame reference to Raiders of the Lost Ark.

Sleeping in EQ · 07-08-2008, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam

Sorry. Typo. He put back his "hand" from the driver's seat and steadied the ark. I didn't mean to imply that he got out of his seat. Not that I see how it would matter. Some commentaries say he was walking along side the ark and not driving. The scriptures aren't clear.

And where do you get his face melting? The account in 1 Sam 6 doesn't have melting faces and neither does the Uzzah account in 2 Sam 6.

How else did I get it wrong?

For the face melting, see Raiders of the Lost Ark....

Indy Coug · 07-08-2008, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tex

There's always a few of you around, self-appointed watchers of the watchmen.

That's because God doesn't provide the checks and balances needed because He's a distant, disinterested party that doesn't get in the way of much of anything after making his patented amino acid and electricity stew.

Flystripper · 07-08-2008, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam

And where do you get his face melting? The account in 1 Sam 6 doesn't have melting faces and neither does the Uzzah account in 2 Sam 6.

How else did I get it wrong?

Raiders of the Lost Ark?

Flystripper · 07-08-2008, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flystripper

Raiders of the Lost Ark?

I really need to real the entire thread before replying. Sorry.

Solon · 07-08-2008, 06:29 PM

Here's a little more context for the Ward Teachers Message [adapted from a talk I gave in March 2007]:

The June 1945 Ward Teacher’s Message in the Improvement Era church magazine cautioned that Satan “wins a great victory when he can get members of the Church to speak out against their own leaders and ‘do their own thinking.’” Furthermore, the Message asserted, “When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan – it is God’s plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe. When they give direction, it should mark the end of controversy.” [Improvement Era, June 1945, p. 354.]

Six months after the publication of this Ward Teacher’s Message, in response to a query on the matter by a Salt Lake City Unitarian Reverend named Raymond Cope, President George Albert Smith wrote that the message had not been approved by the leaders of the church, that General Authorities had been embarrassed by the misstep and it “does not express the true position of the Church.” He continued, “Even to imply that members of the Church are not to do their own thinking is grossly to misrepresent the true ideal of the Church, which is that every individual must obtain for himself a testimony of the truth of the Gospel.” [Smith’s emphasis. See Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 19, no. 1 (Spring 1986), pp. 35-39 for re-prints of the "Ward Teacher’s Message," Rev. Cope’s letter, and President Smith’s response.]

Brigham Young counseled against the fallacy of this mindset that blind obedience to inspired leaders absolves a person from individual responsibility. He said, I am “afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by Him. I am fearful that they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation”. [Discourses of Brigham Young, 2nd ed., s.v. “Priesthood.” Edited by John Widstoe (Salt Lake City: 1954), re-print of 1926 edition. This passage was cited by Rev. Cope in his letter to President Smith (see note above).]

Thirty years after President George Albert Smith’s letter to Revered Cope, the issue was revisited by Elaine Cannon, at the time the Young Women General President. In her talk at a special Women’s Fireside, held September 16, 1978, President Cannon informed the sisters of the church that, “When the prophet speaks, sisters, the debate is over.” [Printed in the November, 1978 Ensign, p. 108.] Several months later, in the August, 1979 Ensign’s “First Presidency Message,” President N. Eldon Tanner quoted President Cannon’s talk, and re-emphasized that, “When the prophet speaks . . . the debate is over.” [Ensign, August 1979, pg. 2.] Nevertheless, President Tanner nuanced President Cannon’s statement in much the same way that President Smith explained the Church’s stance on free agency and free thinking to Reverend Coles in 1945.

President Tanner explained that “[t]rue Latter-day Saints . . . know that the messages of the prophet have come from the Lord . . . and are not, as some would suggest, following blindly and acting without their own agency to speak and think for themselves. Through prayer to our Heavenly Father each of us can have the assurance that the course we choose has his divine approval.” [Ibidem]

The admonition that the prophet does the thinking for us, has never come from the prophet. For whatever reasons, people seem (in my opinion) all too willing to surrender their responsibility for self-determination and allow others to make their decisions for them. In both of these instances, members of the First Presidency corrected this misconception, although Tanner did so quite delicately.

I suggest that a prophet’s counsel is not the answer, but the roadmap to the answer. Once, when asked how he managed to govern so many people in Nauvoo, the Prophet Joseph Smith replied, “I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves." [Millenial Star 13:22, pg. 339. Cf. Journal of Discourses 10.39: http://journalofdiscourses.org/Vol_1...Dvol10-13.html ]

Tex · 07-08-2008, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam

Did you not read SIEQ's great lists of quotes supporting the idea that we have a religious duty, God given, to think for ourselves? You say I am self-appointed, I think I am endowed by my Creator.

Thinking for yourself != steadying the ark.

Solon · 07-08-2008, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

When someone states something that appears to be presented as fact rather than as opinion, asking for a link is a means of seeing what the fact is based on, if anything.

Oh yeah, since anything on the internet is obviously fact.

How about typing, "source?"

07-08-2008, 06:29 PM	#48
Solon Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Happy Valley, PA Posts: 1,866	Here's a little more context for the Ward Teachers Message [adapted from a talk I gave in March 2007]: The June 1945 Ward Teacher’s Message in the Improvement Era church magazine cautioned that Satan “wins a great victory when he can get members of the Church to speak out against their own leaders and ‘do their own thinking.’” Furthermore, the Message asserted, “When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan – it is God’s plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe. When they give direction, it should mark the end of controversy.” [Improvement Era, June 1945, p. 354.] Six months after the publication of this Ward Teacher’s Message, in response to a query on the matter by a Salt Lake City Unitarian Reverend named Raymond Cope, President George Albert Smith wrote that the message had not been approved by the leaders of the church, that General Authorities had been embarrassed by the misstep and it “does not express the true position of the Church.” He continued, “Even to imply that members of the Church are not to do their own thinking is grossly to misrepresent the true ideal of the Church, which is that every individual must obtain for himself a testimony of the truth of the Gospel.” [Smith’s emphasis. See Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 19, no. 1 (Spring 1986), pp. 35-39 for re-prints of the "Ward Teacher’s Message," Rev. Cope’s letter, and President Smith’s response.] Brigham Young counseled against the fallacy of this mindset that blind obedience to inspired leaders absolves a person from individual responsibility. He said, I am “afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by Him. I am fearful that they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation”. [Discourses of Brigham Young, 2nd ed., s.v. “Priesthood.” Edited by John Widstoe (Salt Lake City: 1954), re-print of 1926 edition. This passage was cited by Rev. Cope in his letter to President Smith (see note above).] Thirty years after President George Albert Smith’s letter to Revered Cope, the issue was revisited by Elaine Cannon, at the time the Young Women General President. In her talk at a special Women’s Fireside, held September 16, 1978, President Cannon informed the sisters of the church that, “When the prophet speaks, sisters, the debate is over.” [Printed in the November, 1978 Ensign, p. 108.] Several months later, in the August, 1979 Ensign’s “First Presidency Message,” President N. Eldon Tanner quoted President Cannon’s talk, and re-emphasized that, “When the prophet speaks . . . the debate is over.” [Ensign, August 1979, pg. 2.] Nevertheless, President Tanner nuanced President Cannon’s statement in much the same way that President Smith explained the Church’s stance on free agency and free thinking to Reverend Coles in 1945. President Tanner explained that “[t]rue Latter-day Saints . . . know that the messages of the prophet have come from the Lord . . . and are not, as some would suggest, following blindly and acting without their own agency to speak and think for themselves. Through prayer to our Heavenly Father each of us can have the assurance that the course we choose has his divine approval.” [Ibidem] The admonition that the prophet does the thinking for us, has never come from the prophet. For whatever reasons, people seem (in my opinion) all too willing to surrender their responsibility for self-determination and allow others to make their decisions for them. In both of these instances, members of the First Presidency corrected this misconception, although Tanner did so quite delicately. I suggest that a prophet’s counsel is not the answer, but the roadmap to the answer. Once, when asked how he managed to govern so many people in Nauvoo, the Prophet Joseph Smith replied, “I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves." [Millenial Star 13:22, pg. 339. Cf. Journal of Discourses 10.39: http://journalofdiscourses.org/Vol_1...Dvol10-13.html ] __________________ I hope for nothing. I fear nothing. I am free. - Epitaph of Nikos Kazantzakis (1883-1957)