On Elijah Able

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by Tex

I'm genuinely curious as to why Millet didn't provide more data. Maybe he didn't understand Goat's question or maybe he just didn't want to take the time. I took several classes from him, including PoGP, and spent several visits in his office talking to him about various issues. He also happens to be an outstanding emissary of the church to other faiths, has been the vehicle of several fruitful interfaith efforts, and even gotten some pastors/preachers of other faiths to come and speak at the Y.

In short, the role of liar or distortionist (or "FOS" as Lebowski so delicately puts it) I have a hard time assigning to Millet. It just doesn't seem consistent with the man I know. Maybe I'll email him myself.

But to the point of argument, Mike called the people in that 60-minute clip "false priests and priestesses," practitioners of "priestcraft," espousing views no different from the 1940's, and so on. Whatever one thinks of Millet's opinion on who originated the ban, these are clearly over-the-top allegations. Morever, he didn't even listen to the entire conversation, and when asked, could not produce examples of what he found objectionable.

Mike is a bombastic, petulant child on so many issues ... be it blacks, Palestine, torture, or you name it ... and deserves every word of criticism he gets. Small wonder that Lebowski slithers on by to defend him.

I love after all the crap people have given to Waters for not having written to Millet earlier, nobody else has tried either. And the only person who did write to Waters got a message back that appears to substantiate Waters' claims. Ironic.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

I love after all the crap people have given to Waters for not having written to Millet earlier, nobody else has tried either. And the only person who did write to Waters got a message back that appears to substantiate Waters' claims. Ironic.

The claims I was mostly disputing were that these men and woman were "false priests" practicing priestcraft. Nothing I've heard here today changes that. I think I will email Millet myself, but not immediately.

---

I did a little Googling on my own to see if the Internet would produce anything, and as expected, there isn't much. A few things I've noticed: multiple (Internet) sources report there being confusion early on about Abel's race. However those same sources concede that there was no confusion later on, as he was denied temple blessings, etc.

It also appears that with the possible exception of one other man, no black man besides Abel was ordained. And then I found this via LDS historian Andrew Jenson:

Abel, Elijah, the only colored man who is known to have been ordained to the priesthood . . . was ordained an elder March 3, 1836, and a seventy April 4, 1841, an exception having been made in his case with regard to the general rule of the church in relation to colored people (L.D.S. Biographical Encyclopedia, vol. 3, p. 577, 1901-1936, Deseret News).

I'm not sure where Jenson gets his "general rule" from. Maybe he falsely assumed it was in place at the time, or did he have access to records indicating that was the policy?

In any case, do we have knowledge of any other black men that joined the church? If so, do we have any record of any of them being ordained? If not, could it be that Abel truly was an exception to a general rule?

None of this is solid, of course, but there is little solid when it comes to the ban anyway. I don't know if Joseph Smith actually instituted a "ban" (as we think of it today); indeed, it appears that there was a lot of confusion on the topic at the time, especially with the slavery question playing such a prominent role in (then) current events.

But it appears at least some seeds were sown during Joseph's time--not the least of which are the books of Moses and Abraham--for a reasonable person to suspect Joseph had a hand in it. Is that enough to justify a person like Millet, et al. saying it over the airwaves? Maybe, maybe not. But it doesn't seem a totally unfair thought to me ... or, at least not based off of what is available over the Internet.

EDIT:

Just found a BYU Studies article reviewing Smith and Bringhurst's book that notes: "[Abel's] case is especially noteworthy when compared to many other nineteenth-century African American Mormons who did not receive the priesthood." Is it unreasonable to hypothesize that at least some of these "many other" blacks sought the priesthood and were denied?

http://byustudies.byu.edu/Reviews/Pa...x?reviewID=117

[MikeWaters]

Tex, you have stepped into the rabbit hole. Congratulations. And I'm not being sarcastic.

You are in for an interesting journey.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

I love after all the crap people have given to Waters for not having written to Millet earlier, nobody else has tried either. And the only person who did write to Waters got a message back that appears to substantiate Waters' claims. Ironic.

Of course you don't get it. I was encouraging Mike to actually get it from the horse's mouth since he was the one making such nasty comments about Millet. I didn't say Mike was wrong and Millet was right about the Joseph Smith claims, I was saying Mike was wrong to say what he did about Millet and he should at least investigate to see what, if anything, Millet had to back up his comments.

Why should I be the one to do the leg work for Mike's crusade?

[Colly Wolly]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

Waters, what, pray tell, is the point of all this? To keep JS pristine from a charge of racism? We know he was a racist in exactly the same way BY, MEP, and the rest of them were, as well as an adulturer, a predator of underage girls, an arsonist, an enemy of free speech, a counterfeit translater of Egyptian antiquities.

What's all this "we" talk? Thanks for sharing your testimony. Wish I could say I was moved.

[MikeWaters]

Indy, the fact that SIX religion professors CONCUR or offer IMPLIED AGREEMENT BY NOT COUNTERING that the root of the ban was because of CAIN and a REVELATION TO JOSEPH SMITH means that they are stupid or cravenly engaging in priestcraft.

I have a hard time believing that all six are/were stupid. Therefore, I believe it was priestcraft. MILLET ADMITS IN HIS EMAIL TO GN THAT HE JUST MADE IT UP!!!! HE MADE IT UP AND PRESENTED IT AS FACT!! AND HE WAS THE DEAN!!!

So you believe they were merely stupid. I guess I have a hard time believing that.

[myboynoah]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I have a hard time believing that all six are/were stupid. Therefore, I believe it was priestcraft. MILLET ADMITS IN HIS EMAIL TO GN THAT HE JUST MADE IT UP!!!! HE MADE IT UP AND PRESENTED IT AS FACT!! AND HE WAS THE DEAN!!!

That is pretty amazing.

[MikeWaters]

From Darron Smith:

Abel fully exercised his priesthood during JS leadership and recieved a chillier reception under BY. The two men couldn't be more different in terms of their thinking regarding Black potential. Clearly BY questioned Abel's ordination having recieved a pernious lie from none other than Abraham Smoot. BYU named the administration building after this racist slave holding saint. Smoot told BY that JS did not authorize Abel's ordination and it is lucky that Abel had his ordination papers signed by JS. In those days Mel. Priesthood holders were given licenses to officiate in gospel ordinances. So Millet needs to delve deeper into church history before given lame explanations. Please circulate to the blog if you need to.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Tex

It also appears that with the possible exception of one other man, no black man besides Abel was ordained.

Elijah Abel's son, Enoch, was ordained an Elder on November 10, 1900. His grandson, Elijah Abel Jr., was ordained a priest on July 5, 1934 and was ordained an Elder on September 29, 1935. Next time you are in SLC, you can stop by the Elijah Abel monument in the SLC Cemetery and see for yourself. This monument was dedicated by Elder Ballard in 2002.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

Elijah Abel's son, Enoch, was ordained an Elder on November 10, 1900. His grandson, Elijah Abel Jr., was ordained a priest on July 5, 1934 and was ordained an Elder on September 29, 1935. Next time you are in SLC, you can stop by the Elijah Abel monument in the SLC Cemetery and see for yourself. This monument was dedicated by Elder Ballard in 2002.

I know about those. I meant at the time of Joseph Smith.

Listen, I'm really not pushing for Millet's explanation here. I'm just trying to give him the benefit of the doubt because unlike Mike, I don't think he was lying or stupid.

Do we have any record of any reason why Joseph chose not to extend the priesthood to other black members of the church at the time? Any hypotheses?

Also lost on this discussion, I think, is that this Millet-led conversation was likely over a decade ago (I wish I could find a date for it). Some thought ought to be given as to how much of the research we've been discussing was available at the time they had that conversation.

This subject is too emotionally driven.