02-02-2010, 04:22 PM | #41 | |
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For a trial to be fair, you don't need a 50% chance of acquittal. You do realize that, right? |
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02-02-2010, 05:23 PM | #42 | ||
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Moreover, what message does this send the world? How does this appear different from any other show trial in any other despotic nation? Quote:
And what about the appropriateness of the chief executive commenting on a pending criminal trial, predicting the verdict and sentence?
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02-02-2010, 07:47 PM | #43 | |
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Sure- you can presume innocence, but that doesn't mean you have to ignore the weight of evidence either. They aren't on the jury, so they can speak about the evidence with which they are familiar and extrapolate from that the odds of a conviction. You could have a 99.9% chance of conviction and still the process could be fair and impartial. |
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02-02-2010, 07:59 PM | #44 | |
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I ask you again ... how appropriate is it for the chief executive of the country and his senior staff to weigh in on pending cases? Obama (and his mouthpiece, Gibbs) is not some man-on-the-street, and neither is Holder. Their words carry more weight than Mr. Joe Average. I also ask again, what message do their comments send to the world? When you have the leader of the free world insisting that conviction and even execution* are all but inevitable, how do you expect other countries, especially despots, to take American jurisprudence seriously? *Where is creekster and his band of merry anti-death-penalty men when you need him?
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"Have we been commanded not to call a prophet an insular racist? Link?" "And yes, [2010] is a very good year to be a Democrat. Perhaps the best year in decades ..." - Cali Coug "Oh dear, granny, what a long tail our puss has got." - Brigham Young Last edited by Tex; 02-02-2010 at 08:39 PM. Reason: typo |
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02-02-2010, 10:27 PM | #45 | |
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What evidence do you have that his statements will taint the process in any way, shape or form? If his statements will taint the process, won't the media's? Won't Glenn Beck's? Won't Mitch McConnell's? Won't yours or mine? As for the "odds" of conviction, no- there isn't an obvious mechanism to find an exact probability, but you miss the point. The point isn't that we should try to find that exact probability, but that if we could, and if we could peg it at 99.9%, that says nothing about whether or not the trial would be fair. Even if we can't determine with precision what the probability of conviction is, anyone who is familiar with the evidence could have a pretty good idea of the odds of a conviction generally (highly likely, more likely than not, likely, not likely, remote). Obama is familiar with the evidence against KSM, and he is a lawyer and can make a pretty good guess about the odds of conviction. The evidence against KSM is overwhelming, so odds of a conviction are quite high. Saying they are very high isn't tantamount to "guaranteeing" a conviction, nor does it mean the process isn't going to be fair. This doesn't strike me as particularly complicated. |
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02-03-2010, 02:27 PM | #46 | ||
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Moreover, I'm sure developing nations across Eastern Europe are watching Glenn Beck carefully, to take cues on how they should develop their own constitutions and judicial systems. I can't believe you even wrote that post with a straight face.
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02-04-2010, 12:36 AM | #47 | |
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My argument is that they all have the ability to be heard, and to be heard by millions of people. What is it about Obama that makes you concerned when he comments on a process but not concerned when someone with a gigantic microphone makes a comment (including other political leaders on the Republican side)? I'm not sure what you are trying to get at with your Eastern Europe comment. Obama isn't involved in the trial or jury. What about his comments should give Eastern Europe heartburn? I think your arguments are getting a bit desperate. |
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02-04-2010, 01:52 AM | #48 | |
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"What is it about Obama ...?" Um, I dunno, how about that he's the President of the United States? It's tad bit bigger of a role than just a guy with a "gigantic microphone". I repeat: how well did that whole comment thing work out in the Gates/Cambridge case, eh? Re: Eastern Europe: again, reflect on the message it sends to countries with less developed judiciaries when the President and Attorney General virtually guarantee conviction in what is supposed to be an impartial process. It sends exactly the opposite message to the world that Obama intended to send by trying terrorists in civil courts in the first place!
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"Have we been commanded not to call a prophet an insular racist? Link?" "And yes, [2010] is a very good year to be a Democrat. Perhaps the best year in decades ..." - Cali Coug "Oh dear, granny, what a long tail our puss has got." - Brigham Young |
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02-04-2010, 02:52 AM | #49 | |
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What does Gates/Cambridge have to do with anything? Did that taint some judicial process I am unaware of? Try to give an analogy that is actually... an analogy. Your argument, I thought, wasn't that the president can sometimes stick his foot in his mouth (true of all presidents), but that statements made by him could taint a judicial process. In this instance, I disagree he stuck his foot in his mouth, but even if he did, I disagree it would do anything to taint the judicial process. You keep saying it will, but based on what? As for Eastern Europe, which you seem particularly concerned about, once again... he didn't guarantee a conviction. He said "likely." Go back a page for a more full recap. |
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02-04-2010, 03:11 AM | #50 | ||
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They are trying to have it both ways: offering the promise of American fairness while still guaranteeing the punishment that is so politically desirable. And it's not working. A lawyer may see the distinction by inserting one word in a sentence, but the public doesn't, I promise you.
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