Returned Missionary Having Trouble Speaking English?

[myboynoah]

This has taken an interesting turn. I know I'm going to come across as a know-it-all ass, but that has never stopped me before. Having experienced both the LTM/MTC FSI test (in Japanese) and the real deal FSI test (in French and Japanese from FSI itself), a few thoughts:

1) Our friends at the LTM/MTC were very generous testers. I tested out of the MTC at a solid 2 in Japanese; some in my group were getting 3s. This was totally ridiculous. Despite all the claims of gift of tongues, there is no way, unless someone already has fairly extensive experience in the language, that someone would come out of there after only two months with anything better than a 2 in any language; 1 would be the average grade. They just don't get the breadth of vocabulary or experience with native speakers to do so. I remember referring to "long johns" as "nagai yohanetachi" in my test--Japanese speakers will understand how ridiculous that sounds.

2) The MTC did not administer the test in the same fashion as FSI. The real FSI conversation test has three components - free conversation, two sessions of reporting on totally random topics followed by question and answer with the tester (could be anything from education in a specific subject to art to global warming; you are given a random list from which to choose), and then a comprehension exercise on topics chosen from another totally random list in which you had to interact with one of the testers and then translate for the other one. This whole thing was very grueling and took about 1.5 hours. As I recall, the MTC test was only free conversation, which was heavily focused on religion and Mormonism and took no more that 30 minutes.

3) The standard time allotted at FSI to achieve a 3 in romance languages is 6 months, full time, 5 days a week, with a heavy load of homework. That said, many take more time than that, especially in French, since the French testers are notorious for being difficult (is anybody surprised by this?). It took me 8 months to get to level 3, after failing the test twice. It is a 2-year process for more difficult languages like Arabic or most Asian languages; the first year in Washington to get to level 2 and the next year in immersion in the host country to get to level 3.

4) Getting to level 4 is quite the achievement, and usually only happens after several years of living in the host country. Level 5 is miraculous and fully native. I suspect most Americans wouldn't even achieve level 5 in English simply because they don't possess the vocabulary to do so. Among my colleagues there a several who speak French very well, amazingly well, yet I don't thing any of them have reached level 5 yet. I did know one amazing guy in Japan that had level 5 Japanese. He was a former Mormon missionary and was married to a Japanese woman. He had gone native and was very, very, very good.

5) As for me, I am a solid 3 in French, yet my accent stinks it up big time, even now. Sadly, I have yet to "officially" get to level 3 in Japanese, despite the fact that I feel much more fluent in that language. I think that has more to do with the timing of my tests than anything else (I took my last test via the telephone after having lived here for three years--I had a lot of French swimming around in my head). If asked, I would say that I am level 3, simply based on the fact that my terrible French is level 3.

As for fluency, I will say this about Mormon missionaries; given the young age at which they go into studying the language and the full immersion, they have an amazing fluency in terms of flow and speaking like real people. They probably can't speak at length on anything but religion (primarily the Mormon religion), but the knowledge and easy use of day-to-day colloquialisms et al is quite striking, nearly native. You just don't see that in people coming out of FSI, who are generally fairly stilted and formulaic in their usage.

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by myboynoah

This has taken an interesting turn. I know I'm going to come across as a know-it-all ass, but that has never stopped me before. Having experienced both the LTM/MTC FSI test (in Japanese) and the real deal FSI test (in French and Japanese from FSI itself), a few thoughts:

1) Our friends at the LTM/MTC were very generous testers. I tested out of the MTC at a solid 2 in Japanese; some in my group were getting 3s. This was totally ridiculous. Despite all the claims of gift of tongues, there is no way, unless someone already has fairly extensive experience in the language, that someone would come out of there after only two months with anything better than a 2 in any language; 1 would be the average grade. They just don't get the breadth of vocabulary or experience with native speakers to do so. I remember referring to "long johns" as "nagai yohanetachi" in my test--Japanese speakers will understand how ridiculous that sounds.

2) The MTC did not administer the test in the same fashion as FSI. The real FSI conversation test has three components - free conversation, two sessions of reporting on totally random topics followed by question and answer with the tester (could be anything from education in a specific subject to art to global warming; you are given a random list from which to choose), and then a comprehension exercise on topics chosen from another totally random list in which you had to interact with one of the testers and then translate for the other one. This whole thing was very grueling and took about 1.5 hours. As I recall, the MTC test was only free conversation, which was heavily focused on religion and Mormonism and took no more that 30 minutes.

3) The standard time allotted at FSI to achieve a 3 in romance languages is 6 months, full time, 5 days a week, with a heavy load of homework. That said, many take more time than that, especially in French, since the French testers are notorious for being difficult (is anybody surprised by this?). It took me 8 months to get to level 3, after failing the test twice. It is a 2-year process for more difficult languages like Arabic or most Asian languages; the first year in Washington to get to level 2 and the next year in immersion in the host country to get to level 3.

4) Getting to level 4 is quite the achievement, and usually only happens after several years of living in the host country. Level 5 is miraculous and fully native. I suspect most Americans wouldn't even achieve level 5 in English simply because they don't possess the vocabulary to do so. Among my colleagues there a several who speak French very well, amazingly well, yet I don't thing any of them have reached level 5 yet. I did know one amazing guy in Japan that had level 5 Japanese. He was a former Mormon missionary and was married to a Japanese woman. He had gone native and was very, very, very good.

5) As for me, I am a solid 3 in French, yet my accent stinks it up big time, even now. Sadly, I have yet to "officially" get to level 3 in Japanese, despite the fact that I feel much more fluent in that language. I think that has more to do with the timing of my tests than anything else (I took my last test via the telephone after having lived here for three years--I had a lot of French swimming around in my head). If asked, I would say that I am level 3, simply based on the fact that my terrible French is level 3.

As for fluency, I will say this about Mormon missionaries; given the young age at which they go into studying the language and the full immersion, they have an amazing fluency in terms of flow and speaking like real people. They probably can't speak at length on anything but religion (primarily the Mormon religion), but the knowledge and easy use of day-to-day colloquialisms et al is quite striking, nearly native. You just don't see that in people coming out of FSI, who are generally fairly stilted and formulaic in their usage.

I don't remember what I scored on the MTC FSI; I just remember that the last name of the guy who I met with was Lo Bianco and that he wasn't the imposing, fearsome, chew-up-the-missionary-and-spit-him-out man he was made out to be.

I came across a person the other day who was from Palermo, the first city I served in. I was surprised how quickly the language came back to me as I talked with him, despite having been home and not really using conversational Italian for more than 20 years.

[myboynoah]

Originally Posted by il Padrino Ute

I don't remember what I scored on the MTC FSI; I just remember that the last name of the guy who I met with was Lo Bianco and that he wasn't the imposing, fearsome, chew-up-the-missionary-and-spit-him-out man he was made out to be.

I came across a person the other day who was from Palermo, the first city I served in. I was surprised how quickly the language came back to me as I talked with him, despite having been home and not really using conversational Italian for more than 20 years.

We're going back in April, this time to Rome and Napoli. You're welcome to join us as an interpreter. My wife understands everything, especially Napolitan, but speaking is another thing. It's really sad and she regrets that her parents didn't force her to speak it growing up. Of course, she would have ended up being fluent in circa 1960s Napolitan, which I'm sure would have been a big hit in Rome and Tuscany. Stinking hillbillies.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by myboynoah

This has taken an interesting turn. I know I'm going to come across as a know-it-all ass, but that has never stopped me before. Having experienced both the LTM/MTC FSI test (in Japanese) and the real deal FSI test (in French and Japanese from FSI itself), a few thoughts:

1) Our friends at the LTM/MTC were very generous testers. I tested out of the MTC at a solid 2 in Japanese; some in my group were getting 3s. This was totally ridiculous. Despite all the claims of gift of tongues, there is no way, unless someone already has fairly extensive experience in the language, that someone would come out of there after only two months with anything better than a 2 in any language; 1 would be the average grade. They just don't get the breadth of vocabulary or experience with native speakers to do so. I remember referring to "long johns" as "nagai yohanetachi" in my test--Japanese speakers will understand how ridiculous that sounds.

2) The MTC did not administer the test in the same fashion as FSI. The real FSI conversation test has three components - free conversation, two sessions of reporting on totally random topics followed by question and answer with the tester (could be anything from education in a specific subject to art to global warming; you are given a random list from which to choose), and then a comprehension exercise on topics chosen from another totally random list in which you had to interact with one of the testers and then translate for the other one. This whole thing was very grueling and took about 1.5 hours. As I recall, the MTC test was only free conversation, which was heavily focused on religion and Mormonism and took no more that 30 minutes.

3) The standard time allotted at FSI to achieve a 3 in romance languages is 6 months, full time, 5 days a week, with a heavy load of homework. That said, many take more time than that, especially in French, since the French testers are notorious for being difficult (is anybody surprised by this?). It took me 8 months to get to level 3, after failing the test twice. It is a 2-year process for more difficult languages like Arabic or most Asian languages; the first year in Washington to get to level 2 and the next year in immersion in the host country to get to level 3.

4) Getting to level 4 is quite the achievement, and usually only happens after several years of living in the host country. Level 5 is miraculous and fully native. I suspect most Americans wouldn't even achieve level 5 in English simply because they don't possess the vocabulary to do so. Among my colleagues there a several who speak French very well, amazingly well, yet I don't thing any of them have reached level 5 yet. I did know one amazing guy in Japan that had level 5 Japanese. He was a former Mormon missionary and was married to a Japanese woman. He had gone native and was very, very, very good.

5) As for me, I am a solid 3 in French, yet my accent stinks it up big time, even now. Sadly, I have yet to "officially" get to level 3 in Japanese, despite the fact that I feel much more fluent in that language. I think that has more to do with the timing of my tests than anything else (I took my last test via the telephone after having lived here for three years--I had a lot of French swimming around in my head). If asked, I would say that I am level 3, simply based on the fact that my terrible French is level 3.

As for fluency, I will say this about Mormon missionaries; given the young age at which they go into studying the language and the full immersion, they have an amazing fluency in terms of flow and speaking like real people. They probably can't speak at length on anything but religion (primarily the Mormon religion), but the knowledge and easy use of day-to-day colloquialisms et al is quite striking, nearly native. You just don't see that in people coming out of FSI, who are generally fairly stilted and formulaic in their usage.

This is according to my memory as well. However, MTC German testers were more rigorous. We had ninety minute tests and almost nobody left with better than a 1.5.

After four years, two in country, and two studying at the univeristy, I barely eeked out a four. I never met a five.

[Surfah]

I served Spanish stateside and never had too much trouble going between the Spanish and English.

However, I remember teaching my first 3rd discussion in English after teaching it for a year in Spanish. I butchered it but I think it was mostly because I had it memorized in Spanish so I was translating it in my head to English.

Another time while tracting in a predominantly Latino neighborhood we happened upon a grouchy old white male who before slamming the door on us I uttered, "Sorry to molest you."

Molestar in Spanish meaning to annoy made perfect sense in my mind. But he gave me a look that I would never be able to reproduce.

[OhioBlue]

Originally Posted by surfah33

I served Spanish stateside and never had too much trouble going between the Spanish and English.

However, I remember teaching my first 3rd discussion in English after teaching it for a year in Spanish. I butchered it but I think it was mostly because I had it memorized in Spanish so I was translating it in my head to English.

Another time while tracting in a predominantly Latino neighborhood we happened upon a grouchy old white male who before slamming the door on us I uttered, "Sorry to molest you."

Molestar in Spanish meaning to annoy made perfect sense in my mind. But he gave me a look that I would never be able to reproduce.

LOL. I can relate to that. From time to time, when trying to find a word in my head, I'll think of the spanish word, and then use its literal counterpart in English. Problem is, as you demonstrated above, the intended meanings don't always match up so well.

I'll say this much about Spanish--it's a darn easy language to learn. Yet I had a number of Mexican comps swear up and down that Spanish was the hardest language in the world, which I thought was funny. One's reason was ALWAYS that Spanish often has a few words that mean one thing, like words for pig. Yeah, no other language has that.

As for the fluency and immersion, how's this: In 2 years in Mexico I never had an english-speaking companion. For my first 4 months, I didn't see a single gringo except for one guy at a zone conference once. That'll make you learn a language real fast. I could probably count on my hands the times I was able to speak English on my mission.

[Mormon Red Death]

Originally Posted by UteStar

I never 'forgot' how to speak english but there were some words that I would accidently replace with swedish. Sometimes it is ridiculous with some people though that always say it...but church words would mix me up sometimes.

I still have trouble with the verb "to anoint" ("ungir" in portuguese)

[ute4ever]

While serving in the south, we discovered people understood us better if we changed our door approach to, "We here talkin' 'bout Jesus, mmm hmm. We wanna have a bible study, sho' do. How 'bout you?"

[BigFatMeanie]

Originally Posted by Archaea

Those who speak Thai are amazing, as its tonal pattern is complex. Not as bad as Cantonese, but one of our guys admitted to learning it and Tagolog, one of the Austranesian languages of the Phillipines. I envy him.

Thai has five tones. Mandarin Chinese has four plus a non-tone type thing (I don't know the technical term for it). I don't know what Cantonese has. One thing that makes learning Thai easier than learning, say, Chinese is that Thai is alphabetic - 44 consonants and 32 vowel sounds. Unlike English, each vowel sound has it's own glyph (or distinct glyph combination). Thus, you can learn to read Thai fairly easily. The ability to read is a huge asset in building a vocabulary.

Tagalog was much more difficult for me to learn. I suppose part of the reason is that I didn't get to learn it in the MTC. Another reason is the complex grammar. Tagalog has the most complex conjugations of any language I've ever studied. Thai has exceedingly easy conjugation (basically none). The other factor that made learning Tagalog so difficult is the ability of most high-school educated Filipinos to speak reasonably decent English (English is one of the official national languages of the Philippines). It was always so easy to use the English word when the Tagalog word wasn't handy.

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by myboynoah

We're going back in April, this time to Rome and Napoli. You're welcome to join us as an interpreter. My wife understands everything, especially Napolitan, but speaking is another thing. It's really sad and she regrets that her parents didn't force her to speak it growing up. Of course, she would have ended up being fluent in circa 1960s Napolitan, which I'm sure would have been a big hit in Rome and Tuscany. Stinking hillbillies.

Are you saying that you're going to fly me out there and put me up in a 5 star hotel?

Sweet!

I'll be sure to keep my schedule free for whenever you need me.