It's time to end the insanity of "thee" "thine" "thou" - Page 4 - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

jay santos · 09-05-2007, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mindfulcoug

This thread reminded me of a very famous poem “Moses and the Shepherd”
by Jalal al-Din Rumi. one of the most prominent iranian muslim poet living in (1207-1273)

Moses heard a shepherd on the road praying

"God.. where are you? I want to help you, to fix your shoes
and comb your hair. I want to wash your clothes, to kiss your
little hands and feet when it’s time for you to go to bed.
i want to sweep your room and keep it neat.God, my sheep
and goats are yours. All I can say, remembering you,
is ayyyy and ahhhhhhhhhhh.”

Moses could stand it no longer.

"Who are you talking to?The one who made us,and made earth and sky! Don’t talk about shoes and socks with God! Such blasphemous familiarity sounds like you’re chatting with your uncles.
Use appropriate terms! Body-and-birth language are not right for addressing the origin,not for God!"

The shepherd repented and tore his clothes and sighed and wandered out into the desert....

A sudden revelation Came then to Moses ...God’s voice

"You have separated me from one of my own... Did you come as a Prophet to unite,or to sever?
I have given each being a separate and unique way of seeing and knowing and saying that knowledge.
What seems wrong to you is right for him.What is poison to one is honey to someone else.
Purity and impurity, sloth and diligence in worship these mean nothing to me. I am apart from all that. Ways of worshiping are not to be ranked as better or worse than one another... God began speaking ...."

deeper mysteries to Moses. Vision and words, Moses ran after the shepherd
.....finally caught up with him.

"I was wrong. God has revealed to me that there are no rules for worship.
Say whatever and however your loving tells you to.
Your sweet blasphemy is the truest devotion"

Whenever you speak praise or thanksgiving to God, it’s always like this dear shepherd’s simplicity. When you eventually see through the veils to how things really are, you will keep saying again “This is certainly not like we thought it was!

Event:http://www.focol.org/fvuuf/sermons/I...i_Mystics.html

Thanks for sharing that.

Indy Coug · 09-05-2007, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mindfulcoug

This thread reminded me of a very famous poem “Moses and the Shepherd”
by Jalal al-Din Rumi. one of the most prominent iranian muslim poet living in (1207-1273)

Moses heard a shepherd on the road praying

"God.. where are you? I want to help you, to fix your shoes
and comb your hair. I want to wash your clothes, to kiss your
little hands and feet when it’s time for you to go to bed.
i want to sweep your room and keep it neat.God, my sheep
and goats are yours. All I can say, remembering you,
is ayyyy and ahhhhhhhhhhh.”

Moses could stand it no longer.

"Who are you talking to?The one who made us,and made earth and sky! Don’t talk about shoes and socks with God! Such blasphemous familiarity sounds like you’re chatting with your uncles.
Use appropriate terms! Body-and-birth language are not right for addressing the origin,not for God!"

The shepherd repented and tore his clothes and sighed and wandered out into the desert....

A sudden revelation Came then to Moses ...God’s voice

"You have separated me from one of my own... Did you come as a Prophet to unite,or to sever?
I have given each being a separate and unique way of seeing and knowing and saying that knowledge.
What seems wrong to you is right for him.What is poison to one is honey to someone else.
Purity and impurity, sloth and diligence in worship these mean nothing to me. I am apart from all that. Ways of worshiping are not to be ranked as better or worse than one another... God began speaking ...."

deeper mysteries to Moses. Vision and words, Moses ran after the shepherd
.....finally caught up with him.

"I was wrong. God has revealed to me that there are no rules for worship.
Say whatever and however your loving tells you to.
Your sweet blasphemy is the truest devotion"

Whenever you speak praise or thanksgiving to God, it’s always like this dear shepherd’s simplicity. When you eventually see through the veils to how things really are, you will keep saying again “This is certainly not like we thought it was!

Event:http://www.focol.org/fvuuf/sermons/I...i_Mystics.html

Just another example of God not letting his prophets lead his people astray.

myboynoah · 09-05-2007, 02:46 PM

It was interesting to go from Japan, where prayers (like in Thai it appears) are, for the most part, in very honorific language, to France where the familiar "tu" is used. I just chalked it up to French egalitarianism and assumed it was an outgrowth from The Revolution (that is said mostly in jest, but you never know in France). I later learned, as Mike has pointed out, that our "Thee" et al were originally in line with the familiar "tu" and had over time come to take on a more formal aura in English.

In my personal prayers I forego the "Thee" and such but use them at church, probably for the same reason I usually wear a white shirt and tie. Perhaps it is just cultural, but I prefer maintaining some level of respect and formality.

On a related note, the members in France generally don't use Brother and Sister when referring to each other. They use each other's first names, even with the Bishop. I didn't necessarily like it but got used to it, so much so that now that I'm back in the U.S. I'm using first names with my new ward members, which is probably quite unnerving for them.

MikeWaters · 09-05-2007, 02:53 PM

I don't use first names. Mainly because it takes more effort to learn them.

Solon · 09-05-2007, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tex

there is an expectation that we use the appropriate terms as we have been taught.

If people want to use antiquated, King-James English with "thee's," "thou's," and "thither's" I don't really care. It just bugs me that there seems to be some type of policy or some degree of appropriateness. Why can the White Shirts lay off the average members without trying to control, dictate, and correlate every detail of worship? I don't think a few "you's" are going to noticeably undermine their authority.

Tex · 09-05-2007, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solon

If people want to use antiquated, King-James English with "thee's," "thou's," and "thither's" I don't really care. It just bugs me that there seems to be some type of policy or some degree of appropriateness. Why can the White Shirts lay off the average members without trying to control, dictate, and correlate every detail of worship? I don't think a few "you's" are going to noticeably undermine their authority.

I'm gonna guess you didn't read the talk. Am I right?

Indy Coug · 09-05-2007, 03:19 PM

Who objects to the following excerpt from Dallin H Oaks?

Quote:

I am sure that our Heavenly Father, who loves all of his children, hears and answers all prayers, however phrased. If he is offended in connection with prayers, it is likely to be by their absence, not their phraseology.

When one of our daughters was about three years old, she did something that always delighted her parents. When we called her name, she would usually answer by saying, “Here me is.” This childish reply was among the sweetest things her parents heard. But when she was grown, we expected her to use appropriate language when she spoke, and of course she did. As the Apostle Paul said, “When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.” (1 Cor. 13:11.)

The same is true of prayer. Our earliest efforts will be heard with joy by our Heavenly Father, however they are phrased. They will be heard in the same way by loving members of our church. But as we gain experience as members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we need to become more mature in all of our efforts, including our prayers.

Men and women who wish to show respect will take the time to learn the special language of prayer. Persons spend many hours mastering communication skills in other mediums, such as poetry or prose, vocal or instrumental music, and even the language of access to computers. My brothers and sisters, the manner of addressing our Heavenly Father in prayer is at least as important as these.

http://lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/me...____&hideNav=1

MikeWaters · 09-05-2007, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Who objects to the following excerpt from Dallin H Oaks?

http://lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/me...____&hideNav=1

the idea that appropriate prayer takes many hours of language training is what I find offensive.

Tex · 09-05-2007, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

the idea that appropriate prayer takes many hours of language training is what I find offensive.

I just had a vision of Cougarguard in the 1st century AD:

Jesus: Your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

MikeWaters: Well that's stupid. Why am I wasting my time asking, then? What's the point? If you know I need it ... just GIVE it to me, for crying out loud!

Jesus: Um, well, after this manner therefore pray ye ...

MikeWaters: What the hell? Are you saying if I don't pray "after this manner" you won't hear my prayer?

Solon: Stupid white shirts. Quit trying to control us.

myboynoah · 09-05-2007, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solon

If people want to use antiquated, King-James English with "thee's," "thou's," and "thither's" I don't really care. It just bugs me that there seems to be some type of policy or some degree of appropriateness. Why can the White Shirts lay off the average members without trying to control, dictate, and correlate every detail of worship? I don't think a few "you's" are going to noticeably undermine their authority.

Why do you assume this is about authority? Seems to me they are just trying to teach a principle.

09-05-2007, 02:46 PM	#33
myboynoah Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Memphis freakin' Tennessee!!!!! Posts: 4,530	It was interesting to go from Japan, where prayers (like in Thai it appears) are, for the most part, in very honorific language, to France where the familiar "tu" is used. I just chalked it up to French egalitarianism and assumed it was an outgrowth from The Revolution (that is said mostly in jest, but you never know in France). I later learned, as Mike has pointed out, that our "Thee" et al were originally in line with the familiar "tu" and had over time come to take on a more formal aura in English. In my personal prayers I forego the "Thee" and such but use them at church, probably for the same reason I usually wear a white shirt and tie. Perhaps it is just cultural, but I prefer maintaining some level of respect and formality. On a related note, the members in France generally don't use Brother and Sister when referring to each other. They use each other's first names, even with the Bishop. I didn't necessarily like it but got used to it, so much so that now that I'm back in the U.S. I'm using first names with my new ward members, which is probably quite unnerving for them. __________________ Give 'em Hell, Cougars!!! Religion rises inevitably from our apprehension of our own death. To give meaning to meaninglessness is the endless quest of all religion. When death becomes the center of our consciousness, then religion authentically begins. Of all religions that I know, the one that most vehemently and persuasively defies and denies the reality of death is the original Mormonism of the Prophet, Seer and Revelator, Joseph Smith.

09-05-2007, 02:53 PM	#34
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,368	I don't use first names. Mainly because it takes more effort to learn them.