Speech still resounds

[ERCougar]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

Do I seem like someone who hasn't made up his mind? I agree this is wholly about values, and don't shrink from declaring mine are superior from Ms. Beck's and those who are pulling her puppet strings. I hate what she's doing to my nieces and young cousins. I hate what her predecessors did to women I've loved of pervious generations. Yes, those are my values. I think they're better than Mormon values, more humane, more conducive to excellence, and joy. Get used to being told your values are lacking, Mormons. How does it feel? Yes, open debate means this is a two way street.

I agree with the man who called her an ignorant slave more than I agree with her. I'm happy to engage folks, but I'll tell them if I disagree. I don't agree with the way that woman is raising her daughters. I think she's putting a glass ceiling over their capacity for growth and fulfullment. I thnk she's raising her sons to be sexist, possibly mysoginistic brutes. That's what I believe, and I appreciate what that man is trying to say to her, though he may have been more tactful.

The woman is a kook. She said she's delibirately raising her daughters to not ahve letters after their last names. It's telling she noted she's the same as she's raising her daughters. She might as well be telling me she's binding her baby daughters' feet or circumcising her girls. To the extent it matters, by the way, mainstream American society is on my side, and the guy's side who called her a slave, not hers.

I have no problem with you disagreeing with me or the Mormon Church. I have no problem with you criticizing Beck's comments or even President Monson's. I do have a problem with you characterizing anyone who disagrees with you as "kooks" or "insecure masses". She's not debliberately raising her kids "not to have letters after their last names". Read the quote again--she says "maybe", implying that letters after a person's name is not the most important thing in life.

This touches a nerve for me, in that I married a very intelligent, accomplished woman who intentionally gave up personal ambitions to raise our children. The natural assumption she faces from others, in and outside of Utah, is that she's a gold-digger because she married a doctor and is a full-time mother. It's insulting to me and insulting to her, and I think Beck's talk, while going overboard in many ways, was probably directed at these types of moms, reassuring them that the sacrifices they've made will be worth it. Neither of us were big fans of her talk, mostly for the lack of sensitivity, her fairly narrow world-view, and her failure to reach out to those who are not full-time mothers. However, to dismiss all full-time mothers as "slaves", "kooks", or "insecure" is incredibly narrow-minded, ironically to the same extent as Julie Beck.

[MikeWaters]

SU, you should read this.

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200807/working-moms

Unfortunately, some will use this article for the wrong reasons. But I'm pointing this out to let SU know that things are more complex than he realizes, and his disappoinment in his daughters if they become SAHMs may not be warranted.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by ERCougar

I have no problem with you disagreeing with me or the Mormon Church. I have no problem with you criticizing Beck's comments or even President Monson's. I do have a problem with you characterizing anyone who disagrees with you as "kooks" or "insecure masses". She's not debliberately raising her kids "not to have letters after their last names". Read the quote again--she says "maybe", implying that letters after a person's name is not the most important thing in life.

This touches a nerve for me, in that I married a very intelligent, accomplished woman who intentionally gave up personal ambitions to raise our children. The natural assumption she faces from others, in and outside of Utah, is that she's a gold-digger because she married a doctor and is a full-time mother. It's insulting to me and insulting to her, and I think Beck's talk, while going overboard in many ways, was probably directed at these types of moms, reassuring them that the sacrifices they've made will be worth it. Neither of us were big fans of her talk, mostly for the lack of sensitivity, her fairly narrow world-view, and her failure to reach out to those who are not full-time mothers. However, to dismiss all full-time mothers as "slaves", "kooks", or "insecure" is incredibly narrow-minded, ironically to the same extent as Julie Beck.

If your wife is considered a gold-digger, maybe it has more to do with your lifestyle (cars, toys, house, etc.).

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by ERCougar

I have no problem with you disagreeing with me or the Mormon Church. I have no problem with you criticizing Beck's comments or even President Monson's. I do have a problem with you characterizing anyone who disagrees with you as "kooks" or "insecure masses". She's not debliberately raising her kids "not to have letters after their last names". Read the quote again--she says "maybe", implying that letters after a person's name is not the most important thing in life.

This touches a nerve for me, in that I married a very intelligent, accomplished woman who intentionally gave up personal ambitions to raise our children. The natural assumption she faces from others, in and outside of Utah, is that she's a gold-digger because she married a doctor and is a full-time mother. It's insulting to me and insulting to her, and I think Beck's talk, while going overboard in many ways, was probably directed at these types of moms, reassuring them that the sacrifices they've made will be worth it. Neither of us were big fans of her talk, mostly for the lack of sensitivity, her fairly narrow world-view, and her failure to reach out to those who are not full-time mothers. However, to dismiss all full-time mothers as "slaves", "kooks", or "insecure" is incredibly narrow-minded, ironically to the same extent as Julie Beck.

I'm not opposed to anyone pursuing the course your wife chose. I respect what she's doing a lot. I'm for freedom of choice. That's my value.

That's not what Beck is for. In Beck's world, there is one way women ought to be. From everything that woman quoted in the article said, she's raising her daughters that way. Who's lacking respect?

Now, I encourage my daughters toward higher education and higher paying careers. In one respect, that's just practical. If you left your wife she'd get at most about six years of a portion of your salary and half your savings even if she were a high school graduate. I also value education like Mormons value temple worship. I think education is one of the most important things in life and the Beck ethos winds up cheating women of it.

[ERCougar]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

If your wife is considered a gold-digger, maybe it has more to do with your lifestyle (cars, toys, house, etc.).

And, thus, predictably, Mike hits the materialism button again, little aware of the person to whom he's talking.

My cars: 2001 minivan, 1999 subaru forester.
Toys: A used popup trailer
House: Renting at $1550/month.

Yeah, we're living the high-life.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

SU, you should read this.

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200807/working-moms

Unfortunately, some will use this article for the wrong reasons. But I'm pointing this out to let SU know that things are more complex than he realizes, and his disappoinment in his daughters if they become SAHMs may not be warranted.

I wouldn't be disappointed. See above. I'll check out the article.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by ERCougar

And, thus, predictably, Mike hits the materialism button again, little aware of the person to whom he's talking.

My cars: 2001 minivan, 1999 subaru forester.
Toys: A used popup trailer
House: Renting at $1550/month.

Yeah, we're living the high-life.

My wife is married to a doctor. It has never occurred to me that anyone thinks she is a gold-digger.

Then again, my mortgage is less than your rent, and my house has iron bars on the windows and doors.

[ERCougar]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

I'm not opposed to anyone pursuing the course your wife chose. I respect what she's doing a lot. I'm for freedom of choice. That's my value.

That's not what Beck is for. In Beck's world, there is one way women ought to be. From everything that woman quoted in the article said, she's raising her daughters that way. Who's lacking respect?

Now, I encourage my daughters toward higher education and higher paying careers. In one respect, that's just practical. If you left your wife she'd get at most about six years of a portion of your salary and half your savings even if she were a high school graduate. I also value education like Mormons value temple worship. I think education is one of the most important things in life and the Beck ethos winds up cheating women of it.

I agree with you. I'm not a big fan of her talk. I don't think she actually discouraged education for young women, but we'll let that point rest. I will encourage all my kids to get degrees before they get married (as my wife did) for the reasons that you point out. However, I also will teach them that education, while enriching and fulfilling (and practical), is not everything, and that they, and all others they come across, are much more than their degrees (or lack thereof). Some of the most insecure and unhappy people I know are academics. I actually found it somewhat funny that they were so careful to point out who was and wasn't a PhD in the article, even going so far as to mention the one woman was a "PhD candidate". Fascinating, and truly germane to the discussion. Really.

Anyway, I suspect that we agree on much more than you think.

[ERCougar]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

My wife is married to a doctor. It has never occurred to me that anyone thinks she is a gold-digger.

Then again, my mortgage is less than your rent, and my house has iron bars on the windows and doors.

Awesome. I'm installing iron bars tonight, so I too can have the pious, poorer-than-thou ground.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

SU, you should read this.

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200807/working-moms

Unfortunately, some will use this article for the wrong reasons. But I'm pointing this out to let SU know that things are more complex than he realizes, and his disappoinment in his daughters if they become SAHMs may not be warranted.

I note the author of the article is a highly educated, highly accomplished, widely published woman who has had a long and fruitful career.

"Loh graduated from Caltech with a BS in Physics, and returned in 2005 to deliver its commencement speech. She is also a graduate of the Master of Professional Writing Program at the University of Southern California. Her early career as a performance artist included a piano concert on a freeway overpass in Downtown Los Angeles, and one in which she distributed hundreds of one-dollar-bills. She went on to perform a number of well-received autobiographical one-woman shows, in which she developed a particular form of observation humor. Her delivery style is generally ironic and spoken somewhat quickly."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandra_Tsing_Loh

What I read someone like this saying is she'd rather live the life of an aristocrat, a gentleman intellectual like Tolstoy or Plato. So would I! I'd love to have a "Marth Stewart Lifestyle" (her words). She should be damn glad Sister Beck was not ner mother, or else whe wouldn't have felt perfectly free to get many degrees, become excellent enough intellectually to write iconoclastic articles for the Atlantic. Of course she's going against the Feminist Church now. That's what she's been raised, and educated to do. She wouldn't be the same person, and she might not be as happy and self-satisfied if she were raised by Sister Beck.

This is a lot like Orson Scott Card condemning Mormons for being too materialistic.