Screed on Infallibility

[Mormon Red Death]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

September Six

Is this an inside joke? Seriously what happened in 1993

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Mormon Red Death

Is this an inside joke? Seriously what happened in 1993

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_Six

[Solon]

Originally Posted by Mormon Red Death

Didn't they do women's blessing until the 40s or 50s?

According to Linda King Newell, "A Gift Given, A Gift Taken: Washing, Anointing, and Blessing the Sick among Mormon Women" in D.M. Quinn, ed., The New Mormon History (Signature: 1992), pp. 101 - 120:

One of last documents on the subject is a little notebook containing the record of "Washing[s] and Anointing[s] done by sisters in 31st Ward" in Salt Lake City. It begins in 1921: "Sister Dallie Watson for confinement, Dec. 1, 1921 -by Emma Goodard and Mary E. Creer. 1033 Lake Street." Every few weeks there is another entry, usually for childbirth or illness. The last entry is a 2 July 1945 washing and anointing for Jane Coulam Moore by three sisters, one of whom is the same Emma Goddard who had officiated twenty-four years earlier at the first anointing.

The next year brought the official death knell of this particular spiritual gift. On 29 July 1946 Elder Joseph Fielding Smith of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles wrote to Belle S. Spafford, the Relief Society general president, and her counselors, Marianne C. Sharp and Gertrude R. Garff: "While the authorities of the Church have ruled that it is permissible, under certain conditions and with the approval of the priesthood, for sisters to wash and anoint other sisters, yet they feel that it is far better for us to follow the plan the Lord has given us and send for the Elders of the Church to come and administer to the sick and afflicted." . . . Elder Smith's pronouncement ended the practice where it had not already stopped. we have no further evidence of washing and anointing blessings being given by women. However, since the original publication of this essay in 1981, over a dozen women have told the author of their experiences with blessings and healing." [from pp. 116-117]

Carry on, renegade sisters.

[Solon]

Originally Posted by Sleeping in EQ

It never ceases to amaze that people don't actually read the scriptures. I'm going to list just a few sources of my POV that a Church member can reject the insinuations that everything that is spoken or written by a Church leader must be agreed with (including the recent California memo). These are the sorts of passages and quotes that zealots habitually ignore, but frankly, I think that we as a Church should pay more attention to them.

If the Church wants someone opposed to the California memo to take it more seriously, they know what to do. Follow the scriptures. This would mean ceasing to try to push people around with a memo and putting a document forward to the voice of the people as revelation for the Church to be canonized. If this issue is as important as the memo declares, then there should be a willingness to do this. In my view, the bureaucratic mentality has gotten way out of hand. Memos are taken as revelation. The people are subject to a Handbook of Instructions that they do not have free and unfettered access to, let alone any meaningful input regarding. Common Consent has become a meaningless Communist Party vote, with sychophants and toadies feeling justified in trying to declare "settled doctrines" as they go about imposing their views on others. And all of this in the name of convenience for leaders.

I offer the following scriptures and quotes as food for thought. I've offered others at other times, but these may be "new" to some:

Deut. 18:21-22:

"You may say to yourself, "How can we recognize a word that the Lord has not spoken?" If a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord but the thing does not take place or prove true, it is a word that the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; do not be frightened by it." (NRSV)

D&C 107: 81-84:

81 There is not any person belonging to the church who is exempt from this council of the church.

82 And inasmuch as a President of the High Priesthood shall transgress, he shall be had in remembrance before the common council of the church, who shall be assisted by twelve counselors of the High Priesthood;


83 And their decision upon his head shall be an end of controversy concerning him.


84 Thus, none shall be exempted from the justice and the laws of God, that all things may be done in order and in solemnity before him, according to truth and righteousness.

D&C 26:2
2 And all things shall be done by common consent in the church, by much prayer and faith, for all things you shall receive by faith. Amen.

D&C 28:13
13 For all things must be done in order, and by common consent in the church, by the prayer of faith.

And then from some Church leaders:

Brigham Young, May 8, 1854:

"I have known many times that I have preached [w]rong but I asked the Father in the name of Jesus to take it from the minds of the people and I believe he always did drop the [veil] over it."

Orson Hyde (on the occasion of Sidney Rigdon's proposed guardianship):

"There is a way by which all revelations purporting to be from God through any man can be tested. Brother Joseph gave us the plan, says he, when all the quorums are assembled and organized in order, if it pass one let it go to another, and if it pass that, to another, and so on until it has passed all the quorums; and if it pass the whole without running against a snag, then says he, it wants enquiring into: you must see to it. It is known to some who are present that there is a quorum organized where revelation can be tested. Brother Joseph said, let no revelation go to the people until it has been tested here. Now I would ask, did Elder Rigdon call the quorum together and there lay his revelation before it, to have it tested? No, he did not wait to call the quorum; neither did he call the authorities together that were here. He endeavored to ensnare the people and lure their minds by his flowery eloquence; but the plan was defeated. The voice of the people was in favor of sustaining the Twelve to be their leaders....When any man comes here with a revelation purporting to be from God, we feel duty bound to question its validity. This is a kind of furnace to prove all things, and Elder Rigdon don't like to come into the furnace." [emphasis mine]

Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 3:203:

"It makes no difference what is written or what anyone has said, if what has been said is in conflict with what the Lord has revealed, we can set it aside. My words and the teachings of any other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them. Let us have this matter clear. We have accepted the four standard works as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we measure every man's doctrine."

The source of the undoctrinal notion that Church leaders do our thinking for us: the Ward Teachers Message of June 1945:

"When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan--it is God's plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe. When they give direction, it should mark the end of controversy. God works in no other way. To think otherwise, without immediate repentance, may cost one his faith, may destroy his testimony, and leave him a stranger to the kingdom of God."


And President George Albert Smith's reaction to the Ward Teachers Message of June 1945:

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
Office of the First Presidency
Salt Lake City, Utah

December 7, 1945

Dr. J. Raymond Cope
First Unitarian Society
13th East at 6th South Street
Salt Lake City, Utah

My dear Dr. Cope:
I have read with interest and deep concern your letter of November 16, 1945, in which you make special comment on "a short religious editorial prepared by one of your (our) leaders entitled "Sustaining the General Authorities of the Church'". You say that you read the message with amazement, and that you have since been disturbed because of its effect upon members of the Church.

I am gratified with the spirit of friendliness that pervades your letter, and thank you for having taken the time to write to me. The leaflet to which you refer, and from which you quote in your letter, was not "prepared" by "one of our leaders." However, one or more of them inadvertently permitted the paragraph to pass uncensored. By their so doing, not a few members of the Church have been upset in their feelings, and General Authorities have been embarrassed.

I am pleased to assure you that you are right in your attitude that the passage quoted does not express the true position of the Church. Even to imply that members of the Church are not to do their own thinking is grossly to misrepresent the true ideal of the Church, which is that every individual must obtain for himself a testimony of the truth of the Gospel, must, through the redemption of Jesus Christ, work out his own salvation, and is personally responsible to His Maker for his individual acts. The Lord Himself does not attempt coercion in His desire and effort to give peace and salvation to His children. He gives the principles of life and true progress, but leaves every person free to choose or to reject His teachings. This plan the Authorities of the Church try to follow.

The Prophet Joseph Smith once said: "I want liberty of thinking and believing as I please." This liberty he and his successors in the leadership of the Church have granted to every other member thereof. On one occasion in answer to the question by a prominent visitor how he governed his people, the Prophet answered: "I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves."

Again, as recorded in the History of the Church (Volume 5, page 498 [499] Joseph Smith said further: "If I esteem mankind to be in error, shall I bear them down? No. I will lift them up, and in their own way too, if I cannot persuade them my way is better; and I will not seek to compel any man to believe as I do, only by the force of reasoning, for truth will cut its own way."

I cite these few quotations, from many that might be given, merely to confirm your good and true opinion that the Church gives to every man his free agency, and admonishes him always to use the reason and good judgment with which God has blessed him.
In the advocacy of this principle leaders of the Church not only join congregations in singing but quote frequently the following:

"Know this, that every soul is free
To choose his life and what he'll be,
For this eternal truth is given
That God will force no man to heaven."

Again I thank you for your manifest friendliness and for your expressed willingness to cooperate in every way to establish good will and harmony among the people with whom we are jointly laboring to bring brotherhood and tolerance.

Faithfully yours,

Geo. Albert Smith [signed]

Lest you begin to feel that we take you for granted, thank you for taking the effort to post these primary sources - here and in other threads. They're excellent resources.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by Solon

Lest you begin to feel that we take you for granted, thank you for taking the effort to post these primary sources - here and in other threads. They're excellent resources.

I'll echo this. WHile we may not see eye to eye on everything, I very much apprecaite the posting of these materials.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Solon

According to Linda King Newell, "A Gift Given, A Gift Taken: Washing, Anointing, and Blessing the Sick among Mormon Women" in D.M. Quinn, ed., The New Mormon History (Signature: 1992), pp. 101 - 120:

Carry on, renegade sisters.

So priesthood keys don't matter?

[Solon]

Originally Posted by Tex

So priesthood keys don't matter?

I'm not taking that bait, Tex. Just providing a source for people too cheap to invest in books (you might recognize them as people always asking for 'links.')

I personally like the idea of sisters secretly continuing to bless each other. Whether or not it's appropriate is not my call to make.

[MikeWaters]

Tex, women have the priesthood. They just don't go through the ordinances and such.

[MikeWaters]

On my mission, a woman bore her testimony...

Her dog was giving birth and having a hard time. She asked her inactive husband to give it a blessing. He refused. So she gave it a blessing instead, and the dog and pups were ok. She testified to the power of God through healing.

I was kind of dumbfounded at the time. But I've grown up a little since I was 19, and I think it's pretty cool now.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Solon

I'm not taking that bait, Tex. Just providing a source for people too cheap to invest in books (you might recognize them as people always asking for 'links.')

Asking for links has nothing to do with being cheap or averse to book reading. Asking for a link serves two practical purposes

1. When someone states something that appears to be presented as fact rather than as opinion, asking for a link is a means of seeing what the fact is based on, if anything.

2. When someone mentions something that is new or interesting, asking for a link is an honest desire to read up on the subject and explore further if need or interest dictates.