An Insider's View of Mormon Origins

[BlueK]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

I'm not joking. I have no idea if he is an insider. Is he a notorious character or something? I assume BKP and others like him want his head on a pike.

I think what he thinks is a joke is the idea that a CES instructor is an insider. I guess it depends on how you want to define the word.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Jim Swarthout

Hollow in the sense that whether or not he is a "Insider" has nothing to do with the quality of his research and conclusions.

That's a straw man. Did anyone claim that the silly title discredits the entire book?

Originally Posted by Jim Swarthout

Hollow in the sense that the title was a marketing ploy to which he freely admits was his publisher's decision.

He is passing the buck. Given the blowback resulting from an incredibly cheesy title, he is pinning it on his publisher.

Originally Posted by Jim Swarthout

Hollow in the sense that "Insider" is an ambiguous term with plenty of room for reasonable interpretations.

Anyone who thinks a CES instructor is a legitimate "insider" can't be taken too seriously. It's a cheap ploy at sensationalism.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by BlueK

I think what he thinks is a joke is the idea that a CES instructor is an insider. I guess it depends on how you want to define the word.

Bingo.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

Bingo.

I think I'm an "insider." So there. Given that I'm seventh generation Mormon and served a mission I think that's fair.

Seriously, I don't think it's ridiculous to call someone in CES an insider. They spend their careers thinking and teaching the origins of Mormonism full time. They get the canned version to teach, but the ones with a modicum of personal integrity and intellectual curiosity must spend a lot of time looking behind the official story. And they have the resources and time to do it.

Certainly to an outsider someone who spent their life in CES would be an insider, or at least possessed of more than enough platform to credibly write and attract interest in this book. Focus on the facts, Lebowski. You're better than FARMS.

In contrast, GA's do what? Focus on policy and parroting the official story, if they address the origins of Mormonism at all any more. From what I've seen they mostly deal in platitudes.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

I think I'm an "insider." So there. Given that I'm seventh generation Mormon and served a mission I think that's fair.

Seriously, I don't think it's ridiculous to call someone in CES an insider. They spend their careers thinking and teaching the origins of Mormonism full time. They get the canned version to teach, but the ones with a modicum of personal integrity and intellectual curiosity must spend a lot of time looking behind the official story. And they have the resources and time to do it.

Certainly to an outsider someone who spent their life in CES would be an insider, or at least possessed of more than enough platform to credibly write and attract interest in this book. Focus on the facts, Lebowski. You're better than FARMS.

In contrast, GA's do what? Focus on policy and parroting the official story, if they address the origins of Mormonism at all any more. From what I've seen they mostly deal in platitudes.

Yes, "insider" is such a broad term that it could be hijacked by anyone. But in this case, it clearly makes the title sound more provocative; more sensational. It's a cheap ploy to move copy. I am quite surprised that you are so defensive about it.

As for "insider" status for CES, I think you are really stretching. How does a CES position make one an "insider" in terms of an expose of this type? So he got paid for years to tell the official LDS story. So what? How does that give him any more of a platform than an LDS historian or LDS academic? I have a neighbor who is a career CES employee. I asked him the other day what he thought about the recent PBS documentary. He told me that he didn't watch it because he thought it sounded anti-mormon.

I suspect that in any other setting whatsoever, you would be merciless in your mocking of anything CES-related. But since this guy has turned his back on the LDS faith, his CES background suddenly has cachet. Please....

[Taq Man]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

Yes, "insider" is such a broad term that it could be hijacked by anyone. But in this case, it clearly makes the title sound more provocative; more sensational. It's a cheap ploy to move copy. I am quite surprised that you are so defensive about it.

As for "insider" status for CES, I think you are really stretching. How does a CES position make one an "insider" in terms of an expose of this type? So he got paid for years to tell the official LDS story. So what? How does that give him any more of a platform than an LDS historian or LDS academic? I have a neighbor who is a career CES employee. I asked him the other day what he thought about the recent PBS documentary. He told me that he didn't watch it because he thought it sounded anti-mormon.

I suspect that in any other setting whatsoever, you would be merciless in your mocking of anything CES-related. But since this guy has turned his back on the LDS faith, his CES background suddenly has cachet. Please....

This is lame. Very much like Clinton qualifying the meaning of "is". Anyone who was born and raised in the church who maintained activity through the Temple is an insider. This would be the opposite of outsider, say someone like a southern baptist minister who though a scholar with 5 Doctorates could never claim to be an insider. It's real simple, Inside means inside the temple. Good enough? or do you need a club card to the holy of holies to call yourself an insider?

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

I suspect that in any other setting whatsoever, you would be merciless in your mocking of anything CES-related. But since this guy has turned his back on the LDS faith, his CES background suddenly has cachet. Please....

The fact that they usually lack any analysis in their approach, and must toe the line to retain their livelihoods, doesn't mean that when one of them (after retirement) deviates from the official story he lacks credibility in the same way that CES folks would parroting the official story.

By the way, Palmer claims he still has some kind of faith that JS had "an [ambiguous] encounter with God."

[BlueHair]

I read the book last year some time. It has been a while, but it seems like most of it made sense to me. I didn't get the feeling that he was anti-mormon, in fact, if I recall correctly, he was still active and wanted to stay in the church. Has he been excommunicated since then? What I took from the book was that he thought Joseph Smith had a geniune desire to bring people to Christ. Whether the BOM was to be taken literally was another issue.

As far as the "insider" title goes, he probably was trying to sell more books. So what? It would make sense to sell as many books as you can. The church added "Another Testament of Jesus Christ" to make it look more Christian to outsiders.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

The fact that they usually lack any analysis in their approach, and must toe the line to retain their livelihoods, doesn't mean that when one of them (after retirement) deviates from the official story he lacks credibility in the same way that CES folks would parroting the official story.

That's a truly fascinating statement. From what I understand, Brother Palmer decided quite early in life that spiritual experiences where not to be trusted and that the official church story was a bunch of hooey. Yet he continued to cash his paycheck from the church every two weeks for the rest of his career for promoting this "fabrication". And he is now our shining example of credibility? Am I missing something?

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Taq Man

This is lame. Very much like Clinton qualifying the meaning of "is". Anyone who was born and raised in the church who maintained activity through the Temple is an insider. This would be the opposite of outsider, say someone like a southern baptist minister who though a scholar with 5 Doctorates could never claim to be an insider. It's real simple, Inside meansit boils inside the temple. Good enough? or do you need a club card to the holy of holies to call yourself an insider?

It's fairly simple. I think the book title is more than a bit cheesy and sounds pretentious for a CES employee. But if you feel impressed by it, then swell for you. Knock yourself out.