How can LDS accommodate gays?

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by BYU71

I certainly think I have as much grounds to claim I should be treated as everyone else in the ward as someone who wants to have a homosexual relationship. It is my contention that neither I or they have such claim. Rules are rules.

Rules are changed all the time. Whether at the top, or with local discretion.

For example, the recently activated guy on my mission who was an alcoholic. He attended church for several weeks, and was called in by the branch president and asked to be the Sunday School President. He said, "But I drink." The BP said "No one is perfect."

I love that story. And I love how the story ended.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Rules are changed all the time. Whether at the top, or with local discretion.

For example, the recently activated guy on my mission who was an alcoholic. He attended church for several weeks, and was called in by the branch president and asked to be the Sunday School President. He said, "But I drink." The BP said "No one is perfect."

I love that story. And I love how the story ended.

What is sin in your mind, or does sin even exist in your opinion?

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by BYU71

I like 3, but am definitely opposed to 4. If we are going to have a law of chastity, we have to have a law of chastity.

I have been a divorced man for 25 years now. I understand the concept of chastity. I understand to fully participate in my culture, I have to obey that law. Should I choose not to, I don't expect anyone in the church to grant me an exception.

I certainly think I have as much grounds to claim I should be treated as everyone else in the ward as someone who wants to have a homosexual relationship. It is my contention that neither I or they have such claim. Rules are rules.

Yes we have a Law of Chastity.

We also have a word of wisdom.

We also have a law of tithing.

We also have laws of gospel, sacrifice, and consecration.

We also have
Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them
that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them
which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

We also have
Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which
is in heaven is perfect.

We also have
Matthew 6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to
be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which
is in heaven.

We also have
Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the
heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their
much speaking.

We also have
Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will
hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the
one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

We also have
Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. (oops JS added unrighteously to that clause, freeing up all the righteous judgers in the church to have at it)

etc etc

The truth is no one obeys these laws 100% of the time, so no one is worthy to participate fully in the church as you say it.

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by jay santos

Yes we have a Law of Chastity.

We also have a word of wisdom.

We also have a law of tithing.

We also have laws of gospel, sacrifice, and consecration.

We also have
Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them
that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them
which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

We also have
Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which
is in heaven is perfect.

We also have
Matthew 6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to
be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which
is in heaven.

We also have
Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the
heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their
much speaking.

We also have
Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will
hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the
one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

We also have
Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. (oops JS added unrighteously to that clause, freeing up all the righteous judgers in the church to have at it)

etc etc

The truth is no one obeys these laws 100% of the time, so no one is worthy to participate fully in the church as you say it.

It's like the speed limit and immigration laws vs the laws against stealing and fraud.

Laws may be laws, but some laws are deemed to be more important. Believe me, I would like to have the law of chastity deemed to be as important as the law of the WOW, it just isn't.

As far as BYU goes, I wish they were both considered as relevant as the law against judging others. It would help to keep some of the athletes in school.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by jay santos

[SIZE=2]Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. (oops JS added unrighteously to that clause, freeing up all the righteous judgers in the church to have at it)

So are you contending that no one can exercise judgment of any sort? Are you involved with hiring people at work?

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by BYU71

It's like the speed limit and immigration laws vs the laws against stealing and fraud.

Laws may be laws, but some laws are deemed to be more important. Believe me, I would like to have the law of chastity deemed to be as important as the law of the WOW, it just isn't.

As far as BYU goes, I wish they were both considered as relevant as the law against judging others. It would help to keep some of the athletes in school.

I agree some sins are more serious than others, but none should stop someone from participating in the church. See Corianton.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

So are you contending that no one can exercise judgment of any sort? Are you involved with hiring people at work?

I just think it's unfortunate that I've seen many self-righteous, judgemental a-holes dismiss that scripture so easily by going to the JS addition, assuming that all their judgements are done so righteously.

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by jay santos

I agree some sins are more serious than others, but none should stop someone from participating in the church. See Corianton.

I just don't see how any organization can have rules and not have at the same time some type of punishment or reward, depending on how you look at it, for not following the rules.

Bottom line, it is about controlling. It is too vast an organization to be concerned about the individual. Concern for the individual has to be handled at the local level, by the family or EQ President, Bishop, SP, etc. You get lucky or unlucky depending on who gets put into leadership. If you need a sensitive, forgiving type, you luck out if he is called to be your Bishop. If you get a orthodox hardliner, then tough luck. Maybe another person in the ward got lucky because the hardliner is just what they needed.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by jay santos

I agree some sins are more serious than others, but none should stop someone from participating in the church. See Corianton.

It depends on what kind of participation, and what kind of sin. I get criticized for a perceived hardline approach, but that is exactly what you are proposing: NO sin, no matter what it is, should prevent church participation.

That kind of absolutist thinking is neither practical nor wise.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Tex

It depends on what kind of participation, and what kind of sin. I get criticized for a perceived hardline approach, but that is exactly what you are proposing: NO sin, no matter what it is, should prevent church participation.

That kind of absolutist thinking is neither practical nor wise.

"What about if a guy comes in with a machine gun and mows down the whole entire chapel? What if he gets out of jail and does it again? Should he still be allowed to particpate?"

OK dumbass, replace never with almost never.