I really, genuinely wonder

[RockyBalboa]

It's more comfortable to bitch and moan, than it is to share testimony and revel in The Gospel.

[exUte]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I have a friend who is not been active in many years. He is inactive because he had friends, so called Mormon intellectuals, who he says were treated very poorly by the church. Doesn't want to participate in the church because of that.

Something in his gut, I guess, makes it seem dishonest and repugnant to sit in the chapel with the Saints. I guess he is being true to himself.

Maybe the day will come where being true to what I believe most in my core will mean that I walk away forever from the church. I don't know. Maybe I will change. Maybe the church will change. But I hope I am true.

Please define. Because they decided that the prophet was wrong and they knew better? Why would you want to associate with a church you thought was being led by a false prophet?

[Indy Coug]

Maybe one of the most fundamental necessities to being a member of any faith is intellectually reconciling yourself to the differences between the church and its members and being true enough to yourself that the spiritual witnesses you've received in your life were about the church and not its members.

[Goatnapper'96]

Originally Posted by Tex

I really, genuinely wonder what keeps some of you in this church, after reading some of these threads today.

It's not enough to disagree. It's not enough to disagree privately. It's not enough to chat with a bishop or a stake president about your disagreements. It's not enough to write Salt Lake with your disagreements.

You have to be permitted to question every aspect of the faith. You have to know how the money is spent, every dime. You have to be able to question the integrity, the motives, the intent, the righteous, the spirituality, the wisdom--essentially, the mantle--of it's general leadership. You have to be allowed to badmouth the mistakes, intentional or not, of it's lay leadership. The way must be open for you to challenge it's doctrines, it's dead prophets both ancient and modern, it's stories and history, every whit.

And you have to be permitted to do all this in public.

If not--if the church takes any action in any degree to prevent this--the church is an oppressive taskmaster keeping millions of ignorant members ignorant, and squishing out the enlightened few brave enough to challenge the establishment.

Somewhere, buried in a trunk in the attic under a lot of books and old furniture, is a testimony. Or maybe you stay in for cultural ties. But an impartial observer coming to this board from an alien world would wonder why you remain inside an organization whose every move you criticize, in one respect or another.

Methinks, "longsuffering" this is not.

I think for the intellectual it is the most enormous internal struggle to reconcile the various issues. This is a venue for folks to do it.

Just when I think I am beginning to empathize with Tex, up shows up the asshole hometeacher pounding on back sliding glass door screaming out "I KNOW YOU PEOPLE ARE IN THERE!! I AM NOT LEAVING UNTIL I CAN PROPERLY FULLFILL MY STEWARDSHIP AND YOU SHOW YOU FAITHLESS ASSHATS THAT I LOVE YOU!"

Every time I get frustrated that Adam is as arrogant, unyielding and staunch in whatever cross he wants to impale himself upon and thus every bit as dangerous as the most "faithful" mullah, along comes Tex to proclaim that he is mormon and anyone else is his way or the highway, brother.

Holy shit, I need to go get a beer with '71 or something.

[Indy Coug]

Then you get asshats that protray themselves as above the fray so they can go after both sides with impunity.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by Goatnapper'96

Methinks, "longsuffering" this is not.

I think for the intellectual it is the most enormous internal struggle to reconcile the various issues. This is a venue for folks to do it.

Just when I think I am beginning to empathize with Tex, up shows up the asshole hometeacher pounding on back sliding glass door screaming out "I KNOW YOU PEOPLE ARE IN THERE!! I AM NOT LEAVING UNTIL I CAN PROPERLY FULLFILL MY STEWARDSHIP AND YOU SHOW YOU FAITHLESS ASSHATS THAT I LOVE YOU!"

Every time I get frustrated that Adam is as arrogant, unyielding and staunch in whatever cross he wants to impale himself upon and thus every bit as dangerous as the most "faithful" mullah, along comes Tex to proclaim that he is mormon and anyone else is his way or the highway, brother.

Holy shit, I need to go get a beer with '71 or something.

I started to try to write something that expressed, in very broad terms, a similar sentiment, but I am not sure I can do it better than this.

Can I join you and 71?

[Sleeping in EQ]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I have a friend who is not been active in many years. He is inactive because he had friends, so called Mormon intellectuals, who he says were treated very poorly by the church. Doesn't want to participate in the church because of that.

Something in his gut, I guess, makes it seem dishonest and repugnant to sit in the chapel with the Saints. I guess he is being true to himself.

Maybe the day will come where being true to what I believe most in my core will mean that I walk away forever from the church. I don't know. Maybe I will change. Maybe the church will change. But I hope I am true.

The "can a prophet lead the Church astray?" is a secondary question.

The real question is: "How will you lead yourself?"

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I have a friend who is not been active in many years. He is inactive because he had friends, so called Mormon intellectuals, who he says were treated very poorly by the church. Doesn't want to participate in the church because of that.

Something in his gut, I guess, makes it seem dishonest and repugnant to sit in the chapel with the Saints. I guess he is being true to himself.

Maybe the day will come where being true to what I believe most in my core will mean that I walk away forever from the church. I don't know. Maybe I will change. Maybe the church will change. But I hope I am true.

Well, I think this concisely sums up the situation. IMO, the church mishandled this situation badly. But it is not the first time nor will it be the last time that this happens. At the end of the day, each of us has to decide our level of tolerance for imperfection within the church and its leadership.

Hang in there, Mike.

[MikeWaters]

Put it this way: I think there were many members who probably asked Juanita Brooks to leave the church, or questioned why she would be a part of it. She was even threatened with excommunication by an apostle if she didn't toe his line. She refused. She stood by the truth in each instance.

She is my hero.

It's too bad hardly anyone in the church knows about her. We might be getting somewhere if people did.

It's like Tex claims to sit in the center of the church, and lifts his sceptre at me and asks why I stand at the fringe. Now if I say to him, "perhaps you yourself are at the fringe" he will not know what to do with that.

The mullahs are lashing out, like a heroic last stand, because they know they are losing. Like Satan, they say that they alone can guide us to the Father. Let the glory be theirs.

We are patient. This will pass. The armies of truth will be arrayed against the enemies of Christ. And will win.

Tex, are you going to be with the armies of truth? Or are you going to be among those who deal in lies and untruths and dark deeds and torture, all the while saying you are doing it in the service of the Lord and not Satan?

Perhaps you see me as the enemy. And perhaps you are right. But maybe you are not on the side you think you are.

[Goatnapper'96]

Originally Posted by creekster

I started to try to write something that expressed, in very broad terms, a similar sentiment, but I am not sure I can do it better than this.

Can I join you and 71?

State liquor store at noon, Brother.