Do you believe there was really a Nephi?

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

I'm always a little taken aback when I see intelligent people talk about Nephi as if he were a real guy. I can't help it, but it's just kind of a little ping. Maybe I'm narrow minded.

No, not narrow minded just more intelligent than the 10M who do believe in a Nephi. Probably better looking and a better lover, too. Hell not just Nephi, throw in the 2B people that believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the 1.5B that believe in Mohammed. Foolish simpletons.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by jay santos

No, not narrow minded just more intelligent than the 10M who do believe in a Nephi. Probably better looking and a better lover, too. Hell not just Nephi, throw in the 2B people that believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the 1.5B that believe in Mohammed. Foolish simpletons.

Ah, but those proportions have changed and are ever more rapidly changing. There was a time when monotheism was almost unheard of.

http://cougarguard.com/forum/showthr...light=unbelief

[Taq Man]

submarines were real.

It would have been impossible to make that journey as it is described. One cow eats half a bail a day and drinks 10 gallons of water. No way they could have stuffed enough food and water for 1 cow to survive the journey let alone a flock of cows and horses. Not to mention surviving in the piss and shit with only 1 little stopper for ventilation. I'm sure the people aboard the livestock submarine were happy campers 1 year later when they finally hit shore.

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by Taq Man

submarines were real.

It would have been impossible to make that journey as it is described. One cow eats half a bail a day and drinks 10 gallons of water. No way they could have stuffed enough food and water for 1 cow to survive the journey let alone a flock of cows and horses. Not to mention surviving in the piss and shit with only 1 little stopper for ventilation. I'm sure the people aboard the livestock submarine were happy campers 1 year later when they finally hit shore.

I think most intelligent people would also think the Pyramids in Egypt are the myth. They didn't have the technology to pull it off.

What, oh someone has seen them. OK, I guess they could.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

I'm always a little surprised when I hear intelligent people talk about Bible stories as if they were historical events. I don't doubt there was such a thing as ancient Hebrews/Jews, and that they had patriarchs and leaders. The preponderence of the evidence suggests they fought wars against "Canaanites" and conquered a homeland in today's Israel, that a branch of them were enslaved by Egyptians, and perhaps that a great leader had a hand in liberating them. Some first hand accounts of Jews' ancient doings (not any part of the Bible) have survived, and Jews exist as a distinct community today.

But yes, I'm a little surprised whenever people talk like there was a Moses or an Abraham who did this and that, paraphrasing bible stories, like it's history. There is a lot of patent nonsense in the Bible like the Creation story and its corrolaries, such as all Arabs are descendants of Ishmael. I think the epic of Gilgamesh is an accurate analog to the Old Testament.

I think, though, you still have to distinguish between the foregoing and Nephi because there's no evidence there was even such a thing as "Nephites", etc., and unlike the epic of Gilgamesh, the Bible, or the Iliad, there is no paper record or other corroborating evidence that the Book of Mormon itself is an ancient artifact. (Cue Chino with his Harold Bloom "enigmatic splendors" blurb for Givens' dust jacket.) There's a lot of evidence that there was no such thing as Hebrews in the Americas before they emigrated from Europe after Columbus, actually. There is also a lot of evidence the Book of Mormon was a Nineteenth Cenruty artifact, such as extensive adaptions and quotations from the KJV.

I'm no Buddha expert. Aren't there extant eyewitness accounts of Buddha? As I understand, unlike, say, Jesus, there is evidence Buddha actually set out to found some form of the spiritual or religious movements that are his legacy, to reduce his sayings to writing.

Now you've made me say a lot more than I intended on this subject.

You ignore the value of tradition in relating to religious "events". In order to connect with an audience and make real the points illustrated by the stories or narratives concerning that "person", we drop the caveats, i.e., we don't have evidence of this person's existence, we have some limited archeology for these people and the toponyms have survived into modern times. How cumbersome is that?

Instead, we discuss them as if they happened, letting doubters and believers decide for themselves, in order to discuss topics highlighted by their stories. That is what you're missing. A lot of people who speak as if Nephi is real to them, may feel as you do, but also believe the value of the continued tradition is greater than making the determination if such and such is a real person. For me, Jean Valjean is a very real symbol of redemption, and I don't care too much if Victor Hugo made him up. I'm not saying that is so of Nephi, but using Nephi or Moroni, or even Gilgamesh as real persons helps in my referencing concepts. I suspect a lot of believe in the reality of these persons to make real these concepts and some people speak as if these people are real for convenience purposes.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Archaea

You ignore the value of tradition in relating to religious "events". In order to connect with an audience and make real the points illustrated by the stories or narratives concerning that "person", we drop the caveats, i.e., we don't have evidence of this person's existence, we have some limited archeology for these people and the toponyms have survived into modern times. How cumbersome is that?

Instead, we discuss them as if they happened, letting doubters and believers decide for themselves, in order to discuss topics highlighted by their stories. That is what you're missing. A lot of people who speak as if Nephi is real to them, may feel as you do, but also believe the value of the continued tradition is greater than making the determination if such and such is a real person. For me, Jean Valjean is a very real symbol of redemption, and I don't care too much if Victor Hugo made him up. I'm not saying that is so of Nephi, but using Nephi or Moroni, or even Gilgamesh as real persons helps in my referencing concepts. I suspect a lot of believe in the reality of these persons to make real these concepts and some people speak as if these people are real for convenience purposes.

That's a fair explanation. I won't jump to the conclusion that you're a dork if I hear you doing it.

[Taq Man]

Originally Posted by BYU71

I think most intelligent people would also think the Pyramids in Egypt are the myth. They didn't have the technology to pull it off.

What, oh someone has seen them. OK, I guess they could.

Uhhh nobody knows how the pyramids were made. The BofM tells us exactly how the submarines were made and their exact dimensions. Barring miraculous removal of feces and urine and a daily 5 loaves and fishes miracle with the hay all the livestock would have been dead in a month.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Taq Man

Uhhh nobody knows how the pyramids were made. The BofM tells us exactly how the submarines were made and their exact dimensions. Barring miraculous removal of feces and urine and a daily 5 loaves and fishes miracle with the hay all the livestock would have been dead in a month.

Raw meat made sweet for Lehi's journey in the desert.

Glass stones touched by finger of God to be a light source.

Universe created by God.


Nah, there's no way a solution could have been provided for animal feeding and waste by-products. That's one bridge too far.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Raw meat made sweet for Lehi's journey in the desert.

Glass stones touched by finger of God to be a light source.

Universe created by God.


Nah, there's no way a solution could have been provided for animal feeding and waste by-products. That's one bridge too far.

Indy, you know you're not supposed to bring up the "God can do anything" defense! It drives rent-a-intellectuals up the wall.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Tex

Indy, you know you're not supposed to bring up the "God can do anything" defense! It drives rent-a-intellectuals up the wall.

I just wish you didn't rent the mullah label so often.