Does CougarBoard derive its freedom of speech

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by SoonerCoug

I don't think the leadership is fomenting fanaticism. I think the problem is the masses, not the leaders. I think the leaders could do more to deal with the problem, but as a general rule, most general authorities are far more moderate than the average member.

The membership of the church is far more moderate than those members who are so vocal. Some people think BYU represents the church. They do, but BYU is not representitive of the church.

[SoonerCoug]

Originally Posted by BYU71

The membership of the church is far more moderate than those members who are so vocal. Some people think BYU represents the church. They do, but BYU is not representitive of the church.

I agree that it's a very vocal minority that is fanatical. I still think it's a problem, but maybe it's not a crisis. Like I said, a certain level of fanaticism leads to great collective accomplishments.

[SoonerCoug]

One more point: someone could argue that we need MORE fanaticism in order to thrive and become a major world religion. If our conversion rate is ever going to surpass the birth rate, this might be the appropriate direction.

On the other hand, maybe more people would convert if the Church came out and more openly confronted tough issues while also advertising the tremendous virtues of Mormonism.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by SoonerCoug

One more point: someone could argue that we need MORE fanaticism in order to thrive and become a major world religion. If our conversion rate is ever going to surpass the birth rate, this might be the appropriate direction.

On the other hand, maybe more people would convert if the Church came out and more openly confronted tough issues while also advertising the tremendous virtues of Mormonism.

Confronting tough issues like gay marriage?

[Sleeping in EQ]

Erring on the "conservative" side of doctrine is much less likely to get you "corrected" by a local authority than erring on the "liberal" side of things, at least in the North American church. Correction of any sort doesn't happen that often, though.

An ultra-conservative, fundamentalist mindset is quite prevalent in CES. I think it is a problem, and I suspect that some GAs do too. The fact that more than a few Church members received their first "real" lesson in Church history from the PBS documentary is a stinging indictment of CES (as is the fact that the rest got it outside of CES, whether on the Internet or in their own study of materials that CES folks tend to frown on--and CES folks discourage these materials without having read them themselves). Yes, there are some good people in CES, and even a few who slip in serious theological issues, scriptural interpretations, and history when they get the chance, but the fact is, many CES people were getting their first significant exposure to issues in Chuch history through that documentary. The Church Family History Depts' own survey came back with a majority of respondents indicating that the Church needed to be straight with it's own members concerning it's history. CES does a good job at some things--like helping young people build supportive peer groups--but its fundamentalist mindset stops it from educating people in any consistent way. When a friend of mine, a conservative, "Molly" Mormon gets told by the CES guy that Mormons can't give evolution any credence whatsoever, and demeans her in a class over it--you've got at least a local problem. I've heard enough screwy stories about CES "teachers" run amok and have experienced them myself that I think the problem is significant and widespread.

There is still some residue in the Church from the ultra-conservative "Clark" men (as in J. Reuben), and Ezra Taft Benson conflated conservative politics and religion to a point that he actually got in trouble with his Quorum over it. Wilkinson played a roll in strenghtening hyper-conservatism at BYU. The international Church is our best chance at getting beyond this stupidness. The fact that someone saying, "You can't be a good Mormon and a good Democrat" makes no sense to, for example, a Church member in Ecuador, is a good thing.

The post-Roe v. Wade Christian Right probably has an influence on this too.

Things are in flux right now. In North America, Mormon moderates and liberals seem to be getting some leverage, and I think this is healthy. Any political ideology having too strong of a hold on the Church is only going to bring problems. Ultimately, if this situation improves it will be because of a weakening of ethnocentric, culturally imperialist thinking amongst GAs and a genunine increase in the theological influence and decision making power of the international Church.

[BlueK]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

If it did, most people here would immediately join the dems to avoid callings.

try telling someone you're Libertarian. That sometimes gets even better reactions.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Sleeping in EQ

Erring on the "conservative" side of doctrine is much less likely to get you "corrected" by a local authority than erring on the "liberal" side of things, at least in the North American church. Correction of any sort doesn't happen that often, though.

An ultra-conservative, fundamentalist mindset is quite prevalent in CES. I think it is a problem, and I suspect that some GAs do too. The fact that more than a few Church members received their first "real" lesson in Church history from the PBS documentary is a stinging indictment of CES (as is the fact that the rest got it outside of CES, whether on the Internet or in their own study of materials that CES folks tend to frown on--and CES folks discourage these materials without having read them themselves). Yes, there are some good people in CES, and even a few who slip in serious theological issues, scriptural interpretations, and history when they get the chance, but the fact is, many CES people were getting their first significant exposure to issues in Chuch history through that documentary. The Church Family History Depts' own survey came back with a majority of respondents indicating that the Church needed to be straight with it's own members concerning it's history. CES does a good job at some things--like helping young people build supportive peer groups--but its fundamentalist mindset stops it from educating people in any consistent way. When a friend of mine, a conservative, "Molly" Mormon gets told by the CES guy that Mormons can't give evolution any credence whatsoever, and demeans her in a class over it--you've got at least a local problem. I've heard enough screwy stories about CES "teachers" run amok and have experienced them myself that I think the problem is significant and widespread.

There is still some residue in the Church from the ultra-conservative "Clark" men (as in J. Reuben), and Ezra Taft Benson conflated conservative politics and religion to a point that he actually got in trouble with his Quorum over it. Wilkinson played a roll in strenghtening hyper-conservatism at BYU. The international Church is our best chance at getting beyond this stupidness. The fact that someone saying, "You can't be a good Mormon and a good Democrat" makes no sense to, for example, a Church member in Ecuador, is a good thing.

The post-Roe v. Wade Christian Right probably has an influence on this too.

Things are in flux right now. In North America, Mormon moderates and liberals seem to be getting some leverage, and I think this is healthy. Any political ideology having too strong of a hold on the Church is only going to bring problems. Ultimately, if this situation improves it will be because of a weakening of ethnocentric, culturally imperialist thinking amongst GAs and a genunine increase in the theological influence and decision making power of the international Church.

Imagine what sort of the trouble the church would be in if international types, and non-pioneer descended members like FMCoug took over.

[BlueK]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Imagine what sort of the trouble the church would be in if international types, and non-pioneer descended members like FMCoug took over.

Probably mass apostasy in Utah. The rest of the church wouldn't care.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by BlueK

Probably mass apostasy in Utah. The rest of the church wouldn't care.

By the why, I just love these Utah-Mormon stereotypes. Keep 'em coming. Seriously.

[Sleeping in EQ]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Imagine what sort of the trouble the church would be in if international types, and non-pioneer descended members like FMCoug took over.

I think the whole pioneer thing is great--for a week or two in July every year. I'd keep the pioneer songs in the hymn book and would love to see (hear) some "this is the Mormon pioneer experience in [country] songs" added to the hymn book too.