09-23-2008, 05:24 AM | #11 | ||||
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Regardless, Israel shouldn't be expected to make any UNILATERAL concessions. Palestinians will get their land back as part of a comprehensive BILATERAL treaty that guarantees Israel's security, insofar as that is possible. How can you expect otherwise? Israel shouldn't be expected to do anything unilaterally. Hezbollah and Hamas, the real "Palestinians," continue to wage war by terrorism against civilians and to pledge continuous efforts to totally destroy Israel. YOU are dodging this latter point. The reductio ad absurdam of your bleeding heart is that Israel should just make unilateral consessions absent a peace treaty, even as Palestinians are bent in its destruction. Quote:
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This is an argument. What is your point here? Do you as well believe Isreal has no right to exist?
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09-23-2008, 06:31 AM | #12 | ||||
Charon
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Your sole justification for said confiscation is this nebulous "state of war". And now you are willing to broaden those conditions to conflict with any Islamic countries. By that logic, anything is justifiable. Rape, murder, genocide, ethnic cleansing, whatever. You don't seem willing to place any ethical or moral restrictions on Israel. You have no moral basis for your argument. Quote:
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No, you have NOT answered the question. More specifically, you have failed to counter my detailed list of facts comparing the occupation/settlements to apartheid. Rather than denying the facts, you are simply justifying them, but without any sound logic. How does the destruction of homes, the confiscation of water, and the building of settlements inside the occupied territories promote security? Not even the Israelis make that argument.
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09-23-2008, 06:57 AM | #13 |
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This is a really interesting discussion.
You may continue. |
09-23-2008, 05:16 PM | #14 | ||||
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No, the bombing of Nazi Germany and 9/11 are not the same thing. Yes, that's a value judgment but we'll have to part company on that point. You don't like my analogy? It's a perfect and precise illustration of the silliness of yours and Jimmy's. Quote:
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Sometimes Hannity gets it right.
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Interrupt all you like. We're involved in a complicated story here, and not everything is quite what it seems to be. —Paul Auster Last edited by SeattleUte; 09-23-2008 at 08:10 PM. |
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09-24-2008, 05:06 AM | #15 | ||
Charon
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That's pretty clever how you throw in that analogy as a diversion. Slick attempt to put me on the defensive and draws the attention away for your lack of a response. Sneaky bastard. Quote:
So in the end you refuse to refute the parallels between the settlements and apartheid. Rather you simply justify it. In your view, it is not an occupation but a constant state of war. And somehow this confiscation of resources and property is part of this defensive effort. More accurately, you give the Israelis carte blanche because the Palestinians deserve it. It seems you have two trump cards you like to play: (1) Israel's right to exist. (Forget for a moment that the Palestinians have agreed numerous times to acknowledge this right as part of a peace settlement) One of the Palestinians' great crimes in your eyes is defiance of their right to exist as a country. And yet you seem to show no sympathy or concern for the Palestinians right to exist as a country. First you deny the legitimacy of their identity as a people and then you suggest that they should simply find another place, much like the Jews displaced by the Nazis. Perhaps you miss the irony. (2) Terrorist acts. You have repeatedly implied a zero-tolerance policy for acts of terror. Until there is 100% eradication (as if that is remotely possible for 3.7 million people living in poverty and under an occupation), you give the Israelis license to commit whatever human rights violations they see fit. But what is the distinguishing feature of terrorism that makes it so reprehensible? It is the fact that it randomly targets non-combatants within a civilian population. It doesn't follow civilized rules of conflict. It is barbaric. The great irony is that you see no problem with destruction of homes and confiscation of land and water from random members of the other civilian population. Not to mention the fact that far more Palestinian civilians have been killed by Israelis rockets and tanks than Israelis have died from terrorist attacks. In the end, what is the difference? The Israelis have squandered their moral authority. And so on we go, year after year, decade after decade in an endless spiral of violence and conflict. I've got to hand it to you, you are a dedicated and zealous apologist for Israel. Given the poll numbers I have seen you are far more supportive of the occupation and settlements than the average Israeli. Perhaps I was wrong to compare you to Sean Hannity. Pat Robertson would probably have been a more accurate comparison.
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09-24-2008, 03:44 PM | #16 | ||||||
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Palestinians are currently ruled by the Islamofacsist militaristic organizations of Hamas and Hezbollah, whose explicit aim is to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. Hamas, Hezbollah, and possibly other terrorist organizations including Al Qeda engage in ongoing acts of war against Israel including terrorism/suicide bombings. Were those rocks that Hezbollah was slinging at Israel? You also agree that Israel should not be expected to do anything that is not part of a bilateral peace agreement. Quote:
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Your comment about the impossiblity of controlling a hostile population of 3.7 million is a telling admisson legitimizing Israel's security concerns with unilaterally giving their sworn enemy autonomy and/or full citizenship rights. Quote:
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The poll numbers you cite are like the U.S. poll numbers purportedly showing a strong majority of Americans favor abortion. It all depends on how the quesion is asked. I have stated I favor peaceful settlements of Palestinians on the West Bank, with full rights of citizenship and/or autonomy--as part of a peace agreement--but not as unilateral action by Israel. I'm sure an overwhelming majority of Israelis agree with me. What I disagree with, and what this debate has been about, is the propagandistic slur aparteid applied to Isarel, not whether Palestinians are a people or deserve a country under certain conditions. Clearly you and Jimmy Carter have overstated your case.
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Interrupt all you like. We're involved in a complicated story here, and not everything is quite what it seems to be. —Paul Auster |
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09-24-2008, 03:45 PM | #17 |
Demiurge
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Lebowski, what did Pat Robertson say in the above post? I really don't have the energy to wade through his lies.
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09-24-2008, 03:59 PM | #18 |
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SU wins
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Interrupt all you like. We're involved in a complicated story here, and not everything is quite what it seems to be. —Paul Auster |
09-25-2008, 02:44 AM | #19 | ||
Charon
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You most certainly did. Quote:
No. You have not countered any of the facts I presented.You still have yet to present me with a single reason based on security for the settlements and the confiscations. All you have done is make excuses. Hell, the Israelis don't even make that argument. They claim that God gave them the land and is their birthright. Given your attitude on religion, I am not surprised that you are dodging that theme.
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09-25-2008, 04:44 AM | #20 | |
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