12-11-2008, 05:11 PM | #11 | |
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Is someone who shows contrition at a disciplinary council sufficiently penitent to match his offense? There's no way to answer such a hypothetical question because each circumstance is different. But on the (in my opinion, increasingly rare) occasion when a penitent man is nonetheless excommunicated, it is intended to help the repentance process, not merely to punish.
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12-11-2008, 05:21 PM | #12 | |
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12-11-2008, 05:24 PM | #13 |
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Ignore them. Trust me, you'll be glad you did. Also, if you're indifferent they don't care about you.
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12-11-2008, 05:45 PM | #14 |
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This is true, and is part of the reason why excommunicating the penitent bothers me.
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"Now I say that I know the meaning of my life: 'To live for God, for my soul.' And this meaning, in spite of its clearness, is mysterious and marvelous. Such is the meaning of all existence." Levin, Anna Karenina, Part 8, Chapter 12 |
12-11-2008, 05:45 PM | #15 |
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You're speaking of penitence as though it's binary.
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12-11-2008, 06:10 PM | #16 |
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For the purposes of this discussion, yes. I acknowledged in an earlier post that the level of penitence matters, but for pursposes of this discussion, it's fair to say that if a person is penitent -- even "mostly" penitent -- then I see litte that is added to the repentance process by kicking him out of the Church.
You haven't been able to explain why, except to say, "the penitent don't get exed that often, and when they do, it aids the repentance process." How?
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"Now I say that I know the meaning of my life: 'To live for God, for my soul.' And this meaning, in spite of its clearness, is mysterious and marvelous. Such is the meaning of all existence." Levin, Anna Karenina, Part 8, Chapter 12 |
12-11-2008, 07:11 PM | #17 | ||
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The term excommunication is itself not my favorite because it carries such a pejorative image, as though the person is thrown out of his home and job, expected to sleep out in the cold under a bridge. On the contrary, priesthood leaders who choose to excommunicate a transgressor despite his penitence would be wise to keep careful watch on him thereafter, guiding him back to a full restoration of blessings.
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"Have we been commanded not to call a prophet an insular racist? Link?" "And yes, [2010] is a very good year to be a Democrat. Perhaps the best year in decades ..." - Cali Coug "Oh dear, granny, what a long tail our puss has got." - Brigham Young |
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12-11-2008, 07:38 PM | #18 | |
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Situation A: Kick teenager out of the houseto live on his own with weekly visits for Sunday dinner. Situation B: Stay at home, with a curfew, no closed bedroom doors, and loving, daily dinners. Hypo doesn't match perfectly, but it drives home the point: kicking someone out of an organization is more likely to cause that person to desist from living by that organization's standards than by keeping him in the organization. To say that exing a member will help that member forsake the sin doesn't seem to have any grounding in logic or experience. Such an argument has the same logic as spanking: the more we make it hurt, the more likely you won't mess up again. But then there is even a difference between spanking, and kicking you out of the house.
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"Now I say that I know the meaning of my life: 'To live for God, for my soul.' And this meaning, in spite of its clearness, is mysterious and marvelous. Such is the meaning of all existence." Levin, Anna Karenina, Part 8, Chapter 12 |
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12-11-2008, 07:46 PM | #19 | ||
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"Have we been commanded not to call a prophet an insular racist? Link?" "And yes, [2010] is a very good year to be a Democrat. Perhaps the best year in decades ..." - Cali Coug "Oh dear, granny, what a long tail our puss has got." - Brigham Young |
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12-11-2008, 08:02 PM | #20 |
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Only defense you've given of exing a penitent person is that it will help him forsake the sin. I think kicking someone out of an organization is more likely to cause that person to desist from living by that organization's standards than by keeping him in the organization. Why do you think differently?
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"Now I say that I know the meaning of my life: 'To live for God, for my soul.' And this meaning, in spite of its clearness, is mysterious and marvelous. Such is the meaning of all existence." Levin, Anna Karenina, Part 8, Chapter 12 |
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