Men Bad?

[Archaea]

I usually don't cave, just because it's PC to do so.

My daughters are special to me, but I hope they pull their weight in their marriages. And fortunately they are working on their own testimonies.

My boys are already tired of the lecture that they must put all their mights into their marriages and treat their wives special. I encourage them to treat their sisters well. One complies, another objects.

Here's my concern: I see many husbands who love their wives, have testimonies and devote themselves to their marriages, yet their wives can never admit they're good guys doing their best. It seems to be a constant stream of complaints.

And then to hear reports back from Relief Society where they complain about husbands not doing enough. The fact is, I rarely hear woman grateful for their husbands, or any woman who prays to be a good wife. It almost sounds as if, they are KNOW without a shadow of a doubt they're God's gift to men, they have no faults, and any man who doesn't please them completely is Satan's spawn.

In a ward of 74 marriages, I would say we only have five to six, no more than 10, very good marriages. And this is in a Church that preaches marriage. Outside of that, I can only think of one good marriage, where both partners are trying to be good partners.

As I survey my knowledge of marriages, I can think of two guys who were lousy partners, but many more women who just stop trying even though their husbands were still trying.

So for somebody to state one gender is more righteous than the other makes no sense, as plenty of despicable women exist. That doesn't mean don't stoop to horrible depths of depravity, which they do, but the good guys rarely fight an uphill battle, against significant odds and do a lot of good, usually without the love and support of women. However, most successful women are loved above all else.

Ah, just a pet peave of mine as well.

[FarrahWaters]

Originally Posted by fusnik11

i drove home thinking ill never marry girl like that and if my wife ever acts like that there will be hell to pay. well the next day i went over to their house and everything was normal. nothing was wrong. point of the story, girls get away with murder, boys get the freakin shaft up the ass.

I hope that we don't all make such inane generalizations about men and women based on a few experiences. I thought realtalls' original point was that it is insulting to either gender to make such sweeping generalizations. I don't want to hear that women in general are better, more righteous, or smarter than men. There's no way to prove it, and thus is seems insincere, or sometimes condescending.

I've heard plenty of stories about insensitive husbands or witchy wives. Heck, I volunteered at a crisis line one year and heard plenty of stories of beastly behavior. I also know that basically good people can have their moments of irrational behavior. I've been both sole breadwinner and now stay at home mom, and I know the challenges that come with both roles. I feel sorry when men/women can't appreciate the work that their spouse does (when they're not on this board, that is :wink: ).

Archaea, from your post and other posts I remember, you seem to know (non-biblically) a lot of cold, controlling, and manipulative women. I'm sorry that's the case. I know they exist, but i don't think its fair to generalize all women as such. I don't think I use my time of the month to get away with murder, and how exactly do beautiful women get a free pass through life? (clarification: I'm not saying that I am such a woman )

[fusnik11]

yeah i pretty much butchered the original thought of the thread with my one isolated experience didnt i farrah?

i guess i just proved it, men are idiots. count me in with the men hate group circles.

i like to call it 'the circle of bitter utah mormon chicks' its an exclusive club where to be admitted you must demonstrate you hate men.

[FarrahWaters]

Originally Posted by outlier

Sounds like the realization of a grave concern my brother has about his five daughters, namely that they've gone through young womens receiving the constant message that they are Special and they are Spiritual and that if they marry some dude in the temple, they're set and don't need to worry about anything else b/c they are entitled to being supported by him forever (implying they have no responsibilities to him).

That might have made sense back in the good old days when men were allowed to beat their wives if they got out of hand, but now that society has crumbled, women should probably pull their own weight one way or another.

I'll have to agree with part of this. I guess the thought behind teaching the Young Women how special they are is to give them a decent sense of self-worth. I remember having a lesson in YW about all I needed to do was to get married in the temple. But I also got lessons about work ethic,a value of education, responsibility, and gratitude from my parents. I like to think these lessons stuck.

I know plenty of women in the church who pull their weight. You guys are either really cynical or just have bad luck.

[tooblue]

Originally Posted by fusnik11

well you getta go play all day at your work, you getta work with your friends, you getta go 4 wheeling when you want, and i getta stay home with a damn crying baby all day long and it just isnt fair....

i almost slapped her. here she is 23, lives in a very nice home, hasnt had a job for over a year, has a brand new car, her husband drives a brand new car, they have beautiful leather furniture and have very little debt all because of her husband busting his ass all day and she actually has the gusto to bitch about what he does for a living?

Fus you really don't understand woman (of course none of us do) ... maybe you should never get married! What you fail to realize is that her job as a mother is TRULY 24/7. While the husband does work hard and provides for family he also gets to walk away from the children EVERYDAY -she cannot, will not, must not walk away ... you I and the mojority of men on this board WILL NEVER understand that. Her actions were ill advised, but not uncommon and certianly FORGIVABLE!

[tooblue]

Originally Posted by FarrahWaters

I know plenty of women in the church who pull their weight. You guys are either really cynical or just have bad luck.

I have known more than a few woman who do more than pull their weight ... In my experience they are more common than men who sincerely fulfill their role as patriarch in a family.

Perhaps its due purely to ratios?

[non sequitur]

There is a tendency in the Church for men to unconsiously apologize to women for excluding them from the priesthood. How many talks have we heard where the brethern appease women by telling them how wonderful they are and how indispensible they are? The Church is run by men. We have the priesthood. We are told that we are the patriarchs of our families. We tell our women to stay at home and take care of our families.

What makes the situation worse is that our society now tells women that they don't have to be second class citizens. It is much harder to sell the idea of a patriarchal order today than it was 50 years ago. Part of this sell job consists of telling women how worthwhile they are. Sometimes we simply oversell it.

[FarrahWaters]

Originally Posted by fusnik11

yeah i pretty much butchered the original thought of the thread with my one isolated experience didnt i farrah?

i guess i just proved it, men are idiots. count me in with the men hate group circles.

i like to call it 'the circle of bitter utah mormon chicks' its an exclusive club where to be admitted you must demonstrate you hate men.

Well, I understand your reaction. You were outraged on behalf of your friend.

LOL I don't hate men. Sometimes I get along better with them than women.

[Archaea]

what's this my job never stops nonsense?

When we get home, we're expected and usually gladly participate in homework assignments, taking children elsewhere and appearing at all the performances.

Yes it's bad to generalize, cause we can always find exceptions.

Men and women are neither inherently bad nor good, but just are. Their consciences, environments, upbringing, all play a role.

My experience is, that LDS culture tends to make women very good mothers, but only so-so spouses. Many expect to receive large provisions from husband, many do a poor, poor job in money management, are cold to husbands, expect their husbands to forgive them of their failings, but never for a moment for a husband for the mildest transgression.

I love my spouse and my daughters, and to the extent they ask or observe encourage them to pull their own weight in a household. However the negative influences within LDS culture concern me.

When me talk, many will comment about a negative thing or two about their wives, but often switch, to, yes, "but she's got the best voice, a cute butt." Or "I remember when ...

I almost never hear positive comments by LDS women about their husbands. Men can't all be bad. I just don't believe it.

[tooblue]

Originally Posted by non sequitur

What makes the situation worse is that our society now tells women that they don't have to be second class citizens. It is much harder to sell the idea of a patriarchal order today than it was 50 years ago. Part of this sell job consists of telling women how worthwhile they are. Sometimes we simply oversell it.

Oversell is a good way to describe it ... I think the problem runs deaper than that though.