Could we get Pastor Wright a reality TV show

[ChinoCoug]

Originally Posted by Archaea

The fact that people you have used religion to justify political movements doesn't mean it should have happened that way.

The civil rights movement was necessary and would have eventually happened no matter what.

yeah EVENTUALLY...

[ChinoCoug]

Originally Posted by Archaea

And you wonder why Seattle questions your approach.

certain disciplines have been demonstrably impotent in their quest for truth. don't tell me you buy protestant work ethic.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by KiteRider

To the greatest extent possible, I believe in the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and I would allow all men the same privilege; let them worship how, where or what they may.

Polygamy? Sure, if it doesn't involve rape. Animal sacrifice? I really don't care how people make their hamburger as long as it doesn't involve cruelty above and beyond the cruelty that all meat eaters accept.

Heh. Interesting. Different question: do you think society has a right to regulate this (ie, via legislation)?

Originally Posted by KiteRider

So after more than 150 years of persecution and being dismissed out of hand, the lesson you take from that is, "I can do that to!" Yes, no one will deny your right to vote and lobby from a position of willful ignorance, but that isn't really saying much.

Illegal persecution is a different question (see above, plus my response to Cali). We're talking about individual legitimization.

Calling Wright's sermons political not religious is not a position of "willful ignorance," but your accusation to me probably is.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by KiteRider

So Joseph and Brigham made Hurcuulean efforts to adulterate righteousness with evil, but luckily they failed, and you are okay with this interpretation of our history? You don't think that God had a hand in forming Nauvoo or SLC?

You don't even follow a sensible path of argument. I have no idea if God linfluenced Nauvoo or SLC. Men did the work, perhaps he blessed the fields, or sent the crickets.

Your emotive language makes no impact upon me.

Originally Posted by KiteRider

I can't believe you just compared Wright's church and preaching to the Aztecs and Mayans. LOL! You are not arguing in good faith, brother.

My point is, I see no value in mixing religion with politics. It gives the speaker, the preacher untoward authority in expressing a political position. It's a wrongful mixture IMHO.

Originally Posted by KiteRider

You are spewing crap and now trying to hide behind a wall of dry bones. You eschew "Marxist attitudes" in one post and cite him as an authority on grand narratives of human development in this post. You list a bunch of ideas people with mutually exclusive 'grand narratives of human history', but you never share your own grand narrative.

I don't believe in grand narratives, but what they argue is interesting and enlightening. The provide insight and their structures are important to comprehend.

Originally Posted by KiteRider

You are NOT arguing in good faith.

Black churches in America represent more than 300 years of uniquely Christian American reflection on the subjects of freedom, bondage, suffering and salvation, and you would dismiss this all out of hand because it doesn't fit your own private 'sense' of eternal things? Where is your curiosity, brother?

Black churches were involved in the Civil Rights movement, but they should not have been. It should have been independent of religion.

The Religious Right should never have been involved in politics. And the Church should never be involved in politics. It blurs the lines of authority and those two should be forever separate, until God himself reigns.

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by KiteRider

There is a subtlety here, and I will try to tease it out for you. The problem is with the word BLAME. "Blame" implies culpability and suggests that the innocents that died on 9/11 somehow deserved what they got. Wright doesn't believe this at all. He is saying that the American government has performed evil acts in our name in the past, and the American government continues to walk heavy through the world today. This has inspired evil people to perform evil acts against our good citizens. How can anyone argue that this isn't the case?

Uh, no. Wright is blaming the US for 9/11. You just said the same thing based on your comments that I highlighted.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by il Padrino Ute

Uh, no. Wright is blaming the US for 9/11. You just said the same thing based on your comments that I highlighted.

LOL.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by KiteRider

Il Padrino, based on what Wright has said, do you think he believes that the men and women and children who died on 9/11 DESERVED what they got that day?

I believe he thinks America deserved it. Maybe those poor saps in the Trade Center were just the unlucky ones who paid the ultimate price, but America as a nation, as an ideal, as a standard, as a people ... America deserved it.

How can you possibly read that statement otherwise? I'm genuinely curious ... is it not obvious that he believes America's "misdeeds" "caused" other parties to attack us?

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by KiteRider

Il Padrino, based on what Wright has said, do you think he believes that the men and women and children who died on 9/11 DESERVED what they got that day?

Yes, I think he believes that.

If he didn't believe it, why would he say "God damn America!"

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by KiteRider

He is riffing on the phrase "God Bless America." He isn't literally asking God to damn America. He is pointing out the irony of a nation's pleas for God's blessing when that same nation causes so much indiscriminate suffering in the world.

If you want to believe it, that's fine. But know that you are most likely in the very small minority.

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by KiteRider

KiteRider out.

Cutting and running, eh?