11-07-2008, 05:15 PM | #61 | |
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I think somewhere in the Bible he "repented" and promised not to drown everyone again. Not sure on that one I will admit. Look, I am being silly here. God knows what he is doing. However, for you to read something the First Presidency says and then do your own interpretation and then claim it is God's word, not yours is beyond silly. It is assinine. |
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11-07-2008, 06:32 PM | #62 | |
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I will acknowledge that our bodies are complex and our genetic make up I am sure can affect how we think, what we feel, etc...the environment can also affect how people choose to live their lives. However, the bottom line is that an individual still has to make a choice to live a gay lifestyle, a lifestyle that is not consistent with God's teachings. Prop 8 was not about deciding whether or not one was born or chose to be gay. It was about gay marriage. I was in favor of prop 8 not because of my belief that people choose to be gay, rather, it was that I did not want to legitimize behavior that I consider to be contrary to God's teachings. Marriage is the "crown jewel" for homosexuality and the debate is not over. I am done with this topic. |
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11-07-2008, 06:35 PM | #63 | |
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Give me your 'interpretation' on what they really meant? Or what God really meant assuming they were merely the mouthpiece? This I gotta hear!
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11-07-2008, 06:40 PM | #64 | |
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Or, with Tex's example of being gay akin to just giving in to a weakness, do you struggle with these inclinations often? When a hot guy walks by, do you just sing a hymn? I usually appreciate your responses, but to make the blanket statement that being gay is a choice is just beyond ignorant. I don't doubt there are exceptions out there, but they are exactly that--exceptions. I honestly can't believe we're having this discussion in the year 2008. Even church leaders have accepted this. |
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11-07-2008, 06:45 PM | #65 | |
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11-07-2008, 06:45 PM | #66 | |
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I'll agree with you that it's a choice to live the lifestyle. But that's not the question. The question is can they fundamentally change their sexuality at their core. In most cases, I doubt it. Whether or not they have gay sex isn't what makes them gay. Would you have considered yourself neutral up until the point you had sex? |
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11-07-2008, 07:20 PM | #67 | |
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Hetereosexuality is a normal, God-given, innate trait of humanity that, within the bounds the Lord has set, is encouraged to be given full expression. Homosexuality is a deviant form of sexuality, the full or partial expression of which is always sinful. I accept that there are some people who seem innately afflicted with this temptation through no fault of their own. This does not mean we should normalize it. As to the question of choice, you're misrepresenting both the church's position, and the status of the question in society. The insistence that "the debate is over," when it really isn't, strikes me as reflective of a position with a weak foundation. It'd be like John McCain walking on to the 1st Presidential debate stage, announcing "clearly I'm the better candidate and Barack and his supporters are ignoramuses," and then walking off the stage. Debates are won by solid logic, evidence, and reasoning, not by blandly calling everyone who disagrees with you "ignorant." Also, you keep talking about exceptions and "representative samples" as though you have some evidence to that effect. Do you have any studies as to how many people say they choose to be gay vs. say they are born that way? If such studies exist, do we have any way to verify their claims one way or the other? Again, you assume evidence where none exists, and you castigate cougarobgon for drawing conclusions on anecdotes when that appears to be exactly what you have done.
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"Have we been commanded not to call a prophet an insular racist? Link?" "And yes, [2010] is a very good year to be a Democrat. Perhaps the best year in decades ..." - Cali Coug "Oh dear, granny, what a long tail our puss has got." - Brigham Young Last edited by Tex; 11-07-2008 at 07:29 PM. |
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11-07-2008, 07:52 PM | #68 | ||
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I was born male and have been attracted to females all my life. There was not need for a chart to know what would be bring me great joy. The prophet will never ask me to turn gay. I have weaknesses that I struggle with and accept the consequences when I give in. I am not attracted to hot guys, hot girls are are a different story, and hymns usually do the trick. Ocassionally, I have resort to other methods. Beyond ignorance is a matter of perception...I believe what I believe based on the experiences I have had with gay people. Up until yesterday I was not up to date on the Church's current "We Have No Position" on this this issue, at least that is my understanding after reading Elder Oaks' and Elder Wickman's statements. Again, I have excercised my free agency, relied on my experiences and made a decision. Conveniently for you being born gay is normal and choosing to live gay is the exception. I explained that my interactions have been with people in the work environment, kids in my neigborhood when growing up (as well classmates), and people in Church while I was bishop. Why would you dismiss those individuals reaching a conclusion that they were not born that way and recognized they were making choices contrary to God's teachings? Isn't this the goal of every individual to recognize when they are commiting sin and make a change? ER, I am not an ignorant uneducated buffoon. Up until a couple of days ago I purposely stayed out of the Prop 8 discussions, but, a post that suggested the Church was totally wrong and would suffer long term affects for its prop 8position irked me and I injected myself into the discussions. The Church will be fine, the work will move forward, and we need to brace ourselves for other fights in the future. The gay marriage issue is not going anywhere. |
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11-07-2008, 08:22 PM | #69 | |||
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11-07-2008, 08:34 PM | #70 |
Charon
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Case in point:
http://newsnet.byu.edu/story.cfm/49488/1121 I can't imagine they would allow a lecture like this in today's climate. It's a pity.
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"... the arc of the universe is long but it bends toward justice." Martin Luther King, Jr. |
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