Bushman Fireside - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

Jeff Lebowski · 07-28-2008, 05:37 AM

Richard L. Bushman has an older home in central Provo where he spends three months each summer. He gave a fireside tonight in his ward and a friend invited me to attend. Here is a summary of a few points that I found interesting.

Disclaimer: These are my recollections of what he said and may be prone to error.

- He started out by discussing the relationship of JS to Jesus Christ and the atonement. He said that JS suffered from anxiety and depression. He said it was significant that many of the revelations start off with "Thy sins are forgiven thee." There were some interesting tangents to this, but I will probably mess up the details.

- He discussed the various accounts of the first vision. He said that the discrepencies are significant and that they bother a lot of people but they don't bother him. He compared them to the four versions of the gospels. But a bigger issue is the intended audience. The early versions focus more on forgiveness of sin (see item 1) and were written at a time when JS commonly witheld many details of visions. The common version was written as part of a history of the church and thus has an emphasis on the "you are called to start a new church" angle.

- He said that JS tended to immediately publish revelations given to his mind by the spirit, but generally held back on visions or details of visions. Even the visit from Christ in the Kirtland temple was not discussed for many years, even though he immediately recorded the experience via a scribe.

- He said that he strongly approves of the rehabilitation of Emma in the church (sorry, Adam). He said that she had a unique position to watch JS rise from a young nobody all the way up to a martyred prophet. He finds it significant that she never waivered on her testimony. He said that he believes she was "burned out" after JS died and was also under financial duress. She did not trust BY. All of these factors came to play in her decision not to go west with the church. Interestingly, he recommended the recent Emma movie.

- Discussed how polygamy was a major trial for Emma and she accepted it for a few weeks and then changed her mind. She just couldn't buy into it. Also commented that JS-style polygamy differed from BY-style polygamy in that it was more focused on sealings that on setting up permanent domestic relationships. He said that about six people were told that they were children (non-Emma) of JS. All were informed after 1890 or so and details are sketchy. There is a DNA project underway to identify non-Emma descendants. Thus far they have ruled out any male descendants and are checking on the possibility of female descendants.

- Said that JS had a hot temper and wore his heart on his sleeve, but was quick to forgive.

- Bushman went to grad school at Harvard and he said that it seemed that everyone else in his student ward was in Harvard Business School so he felt insecure about his choice to pursue history. He used to wander the campus at night agonizing over his career and wondering if he was making the right decision. At one point he eased his anxiety by deciding that he would someday use his education to right a good bio of JS. He later felt that it wouldn't be necessary but friends and colleagues finally influenced him to finally give it a shot.

Anyway, that's all I recall at the moment. Coincidentally, I learned the Bushman and I are related (probably 3rd or 4th cousins). He signed my copy of RSR.

All in all, it was a great fireside. At the end, Bushman bore a powerful testimony. Not emotional, but strong, sincere, and unequivocal. I came away enlightened, touched, and impressed.

(How would you like to have this guy in your gospel doctrine and priesthood lessons? Poor guy probably gets asked to comment on everything.)

UtahDan · 07-28-2008, 05:48 AM

That is really cool. Being in the east you never get to do things like that. I do have Terryl Givens right down the road at the University of Richmond, but I have never heard about a fireside. Thanks for sharing.

Gidget · 07-28-2008, 08:05 AM

That sounds awesome, Surfah has RSR and I have been meaning to read it, now I want to even more . . .

RockyBalboa · 07-28-2008, 04:36 PM

That's cool stuff.

RSR is still one of my favorite books I've read in the past few years.

ute4ever · 07-28-2008, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

- He started out by discussing the relationship of JS to Jesus Christ and the atonement. He said that JS suffered from anxiety and depression. He said it was significant that many of the revelations start off with "Thy sins are forgiven thee." There were some interesting tangents to this, but I will probably mess up the details.

I can only imagine. Think of the anxiety of trying to do as the Lord instructs, yet knowing your enemies are around every corner plotting your destruction. JS probably often felt like he was walking into a trap, and felt abandoned by the Lord. Think of how wrenching his experience in Liberty Jail was for him, just to name one. And moreover, many of his enemies were in the church. He probably felt as though so much of the good that he was trying to do was being destroyed, and God was sitting back and watching it happen. JS probably often felt like things were failing because he was an unworthy instrument. His levels of anxiety and depression were probably higher than any of us have experienced.

If you read the six volumes of History of the Church, those are essentially JS's personal journals, and I've noted how often his daily entries were along the lines of "stayed home all day, wasn't feeling well." It was probably more emotional than physical. Even he who communed with Jehovah needed frequent breaks from being slandered, accused, rediculed and tortured.

Goatnapper'96 · 07-29-2008, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

- He said that he strongly approves of the rehabilitation of Emma in the church (sorry, Adam). He said that she had a unique position to watch JS rise from a young nobody all the way up to a martyred prophet. He finds it significant that she never waivered on her testimony. He said that he believes she was "burned out" after JS died and was also under financial duress. She did not trust BY. All of these factors came to play in her decision not to go west with the church. Interestingly, he recommended the recent Emma movie.

I don't buy his claim that Emma never waivered on her testimony. Or he and I define testimony differently.

Emma never taught her kids the gospel her husband restored. I can buy that she was burned out and all the apologetic justification, but we sure as hell give her a great deal more latitude in dealing with the difficulties of the time than we give the cream greedy Sister Marsh. There also is an effort to lionize her more than Mary Fielding Smith who endured a lot closer to the actual end.

If my thong recommended lady g bottoms is sported by Denise Richards playing Fanny Alger, I am so there for the Emma movie.

Jeff Lebowski · 07-29-2008, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goatnapper'96

I don't buy his claim that Emma never waivered on her testimony. Or he and I define testimony differently.

To be fair, he may not have worded it exactly that way. This is my second-hand summary.

Coonass · 09-05-2008, 04:12 PM

Many people tend to look at Emma's history post-Nauvoo as a big negative but I have the tendancy to look at it as fortuitous. I can easily imagine what a mess it would have caused if Emma HAD gone west. Her son would have always been in a position of controversy and the current norms of prophet succession might not be so straightforward. I for one am glad she stayed. It made life much easier for the church....in my opinion. We have no inheritance baggage. And, for her sake, she got out of the meat grinder.

MikeWaters · 07-29-2008, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goatnapper'96

I don't buy his claim that Emma never waivered on her testimony. Or he and I define testimony differently.

Emma never taught her kids the gospel her husband restored. I can buy that she was burned out and all the apologetic justification, but we sure as hell give her a great deal more latitude in dealing with the difficulties of the time than we give the cream greedy Sister Marsh. There also is an effort to lionize her more than Mary Fielding Smith who endured a lot closer to the actual end.

If my thong recommended lady g bottoms is sported by Denise Richards playing Fanny Alger, I am so there for the Emma movie.

I never claimed that Navy owns Army's ass. Of course, I am stupid to not have claimed that.

Goatnapper'96 · 07-29-2008, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I never claimed that Navy owns Army's ass. Of course, I am stupid to not have claimed that.

Similar to Urban Meyer going away, so has the Paul Johnson reign of terror ended. Good luck with the Wramblin Wreck at Georgia Tech and godspeed PJ...signed a bitter and beaten down Army fan!

07-28-2008, 05:37 AM	#1
Jeff Lebowski Charon Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In the heart of darkness (Provo) Posts: 9,564	Bushman Fireside Richard L. Bushman has an older home in central Provo where he spends three months each summer. He gave a fireside tonight in his ward and a friend invited me to attend. Here is a summary of a few points that I found interesting. Disclaimer: These are my recollections of what he said and may be prone to error. - He started out by discussing the relationship of JS to Jesus Christ and the atonement. He said that JS suffered from anxiety and depression. He said it was significant that many of the revelations start off with "Thy sins are forgiven thee." There were some interesting tangents to this, but I will probably mess up the details. - He discussed the various accounts of the first vision. He said that the discrepencies are significant and that they bother a lot of people but they don't bother him. He compared them to the four versions of the gospels. But a bigger issue is the intended audience. The early versions focus more on forgiveness of sin (see item 1) and were written at a time when JS commonly witheld many details of visions. The common version was written as part of a history of the church and thus has an emphasis on the "you are called to start a new church" angle. - He said that JS tended to immediately publish revelations given to his mind by the spirit, but generally held back on visions or details of visions. Even the visit from Christ in the Kirtland temple was not discussed for many years, even though he immediately recorded the experience via a scribe. - He said that he strongly approves of the rehabilitation of Emma in the church (sorry, Adam). He said that she had a unique position to watch JS rise from a young nobody all the way up to a martyred prophet. He finds it significant that she never waivered on her testimony. He said that he believes she was "burned out" after JS died and was also under financial duress. She did not trust BY. All of these factors came to play in her decision not to go west with the church. Interestingly, he recommended the recent Emma movie. - Discussed how polygamy was a major trial for Emma and she accepted it for a few weeks and then changed her mind. She just couldn't buy into it. Also commented that JS-style polygamy differed from BY-style polygamy in that it was more focused on sealings that on setting up permanent domestic relationships. He said that about six people were told that they were children (non-Emma) of JS. All were informed after 1890 or so and details are sketchy. There is a DNA project underway to identify non-Emma descendants. Thus far they have ruled out any male descendants and are checking on the possibility of female descendants. - Said that JS had a hot temper and wore his heart on his sleeve, but was quick to forgive. - Bushman went to grad school at Harvard and he said that it seemed that everyone else in his student ward was in Harvard Business School so he felt insecure about his choice to pursue history. He used to wander the campus at night agonizing over his career and wondering if he was making the right decision. At one point he eased his anxiety by deciding that he would someday use his education to right a good bio of JS. He later felt that it wouldn't be necessary but friends and colleagues finally influenced him to finally give it a shot. Anyway, that's all I recall at the moment. Coincidentally, I learned the Bushman and I are related (probably 3rd or 4th cousins). He signed my copy of RSR. All in all, it was a great fireside. At the end, Bushman bore a powerful testimony. Not emotional, but strong, sincere, and unequivocal. I came away enlightened, touched, and impressed. (How would you like to have this guy in your gospel doctrine and priesthood lessons? Poor guy probably gets asked to comment on everything.) __________________ "... the arc of the universe is long but it bends toward justice." Martin Luther King, Jr.

07-28-2008, 05:48 AM	#2
UtahDan Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: The Bluth Home Posts: 3,877	That is really cool. Being in the east you never get to do things like that. I do have Terryl Givens right down the road at the University of Richmond, but I have never heard about a fireside. Thanks for sharing. __________________ The Bible tells us how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go. -Galileo

07-28-2008, 08:05 AM	#3
Gidget Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: With Surfah Posts: 329	That sounds awesome, Surfah has RSR and I have been meaning to read it, now I want to even more . . . __________________ I am a philosophical Goldilocks, always looking for something neither too big nor too small, neither too hot nor too cold, something jussssst right. I'll send you a card from purgatory. - PaloAltoCougar

07-28-2008, 04:36 PM	#4
RockyBalboa Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Salt Lake City Posts: 7,297	That's cool stuff. RSR is still one of my favorite books I've read in the past few years. __________________ Masquerading as Cougarguards very own genius dumbass since 05'.

09-05-2008, 04:12 PM	#8
Coonass Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 35	Emma What Ifs Many people tend to look at Emma's history post-Nauvoo as a big negative but I have the tendancy to look at it as fortuitous. I can easily imagine what a mess it would have caused if Emma HAD gone west. Her son would have always been in a position of controversy and the current norms of prophet succession might not be so straightforward. I for one am glad she stayed. It made life much easier for the church....in my opinion. We have no inheritance baggage. And, for her sake, she got out of the meat grinder.