Prop 8 and passive-aggressiveness - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

OrangeUte · 09-21-2008, 03:10 PM

Is it just me, or is the church really very passive aggressive in fighting for prop-8? If my stake president (whom i work with is being accurate), Pres. Monson has been attributed with calling this issue our "gettysburgh"...

1. We are supposed to campaign for the passage of Prop-8, but not to use the church's name or facilities for our work.

2. When "proselytizing" for the cause, we are just "educating" or "polling" the public.

3. The Church has not met with the lds gay group Affirmation, which seems to claim that homosexuality is not a lifestyle or temptation, but a matter of genetics and biology, but will meet with the group Evergreen International, which works to help those lds overcome homosexual behavior. http://www.sltrib.com/ci_10521489

4. The GA who spoke to Evergreen William Walker (never heard of him) didn't even use the words "same sex attraction" or homosexuality, but he did say "wickedness never was happiness".

i wish that the church would just come out and say what the mean. it is very clear that they believe homosexuality is a sin and will lead to destruction of our society. i would still disagree with the church's position for reasons i and many others here have already articulated, but i would respect the church for saying what they mean instead of spinning.

the longer this passive aggressive approach goes on, the more it becomes clear that the church is not authentic and true to itself, and is really more about spin and smoke and mirrors.

il Padrino Ute · 09-21-2008, 03:24 PM

Cue Seattle Ute 4,3,2....

Jim Swarthout · 09-21-2008, 06:53 PM

I couldn't agree with you more OU.

MikeWaters · 09-21-2008, 06:58 PM

this goes back to the whole conception of what a sinner is. In the church we believe some people are sinners, some are not. Whereas in some denominations, all people are sinners.

Per the church, gays are sinners, and incapable of leading the lives of a decent, moral person.

So the idea that gay parents could raise a kid in a good decent way is impossible. What it comes down to is the church thinks these gays are despicable people, but not worthy of lynching, or acting illegally or aggressively against.

exUte · 09-22-2008, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

this goes back to the whole conception of what a sinner is. In the church we believe some people are sinners, some are not. Whereas in some denominations, all people are sinners.

Per the church, gays are sinners, and incapable of leading the lives of a decent, moral person.

So the idea that gay parents could raise a kid in a good decent way is impossible. What it comes down to is the church thinks these gays are despicable people, but not worthy of lynching, or acting illegally or aggressively against.

run by a bunch of old white guys. Or do you think the prophet, is truly a prophet and communicates with God? Which one is it?

UtahDan · 09-22-2008, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

this goes back to the whole conception of what a sinner is. In the church we believe some people are sinners, some are not. Whereas in some denominations, all people are sinners.

Per the church, gays are sinners, and incapable of leading the lives of a decent, moral person.

So the idea that gay parents could raise a kid in a good decent way is impossible. What it comes down to is the church thinks these gays are despicable people, but not worthy of lynching, or acting illegally or aggressively against.

We believe that all are sinners, Mike. This is abundantly clear from the scriptures. If you mean the membership doesn't always act like they believe this, then yes I can buy that. But my experience is that people are actually pretty humble for the most part and recognize that they are sinners at some level. I don't know of anyone who is not a sinner "per the church."

Tex · 09-22-2008, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UtahDan

We believe that all are sinners, Mike. This is abundantly clear from the scriptures. If you mean the membership doesn't always act like they believe this, then yes I can buy that. But my experience is that people are actually pretty humble for the most part and recognize that they are sinners at some level. I don't know of anyone who is not a sinner "per the church."

My thoughts exactly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrangeUte

authority figures lose credibility with me as soon as they spin or side-step what they are trying to say in order to make it more palatable to the target of comments or action.

Perhaps you'd feel better if they spoke in parables?

UtahDan · 09-22-2008, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tex

Perhaps you'd feel better if they spoke in parables?

Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

OrangeUte · 09-22-2008, 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tex

My thoughts exactly.

Perhaps you'd feel better if they spoke in parables?

nah. i would just rather have church leaders who call a spade a spade instead of sounding like a whitehouse press secretary or palin answering charlie gibson's questions about the "bush doctrine".

Tex · 09-22-2008, 04:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrangeUte

nah. i would just rather have church leaders who call a spade a spade instead of sounding like a whitehouse press secretary or palin answering charlie gibson's questions about the "bush doctrine".

Perhaps I was too subtle. I am suggesting that Jesus did not always call a spade a spade (at least in public).

09-21-2008, 03:10 PM	#1
OrangeUte Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 748	Prop 8 and passive-aggressiveness Is it just me, or is the church really very passive aggressive in fighting for prop-8? If my stake president (whom i work with is being accurate), Pres. Monson has been attributed with calling this issue our "gettysburgh"... 1. We are supposed to campaign for the passage of Prop-8, but not to use the church's name or facilities for our work. 2. When "proselytizing" for the cause, we are just "educating" or "polling" the public. 3. The Church has not met with the lds gay group Affirmation, which seems to claim that homosexuality is not a lifestyle or temptation, but a matter of genetics and biology, but will meet with the group Evergreen International, which works to help those lds overcome homosexual behavior. http://www.sltrib.com/ci_10521489 4. The GA who spoke to Evergreen William Walker (never heard of him) didn't even use the words "same sex attraction" or homosexuality, but he did say "wickedness never was happiness". i wish that the church would just come out and say what the mean. it is very clear that they believe homosexuality is a sin and will lead to destruction of our society. i would still disagree with the church's position for reasons i and many others here have already articulated, but i would respect the church for saying what they mean instead of spinning. the longer this passive aggressive approach goes on, the more it becomes clear that the church is not authentic and true to itself, and is really more about spin and smoke and mirrors. Last edited by OrangeUte; 09-21-2008 at 05:38 PM.

09-21-2008, 03:24 PM	#2
il Padrino Ute Board Pinhead Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In the basement of my house, Murray, Utah. Posts: 15,941	Cue Seattle Ute 4,3,2.... __________________ "The beauty of baseball is not having to explain it." - Chuck Shriver "This is now the joke that stupid people laugh at." - Christopher Hitchens on IQ jokes about GWB.

09-21-2008, 06:53 PM	#3
Jim Swarthout Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: San Diego Posts: 143	I couldn't agree with you more OU. __________________ "Reject the basic assumption of civilization, especially the importance of material possessions." - Tyler

09-21-2008, 06:58 PM	#4
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,367	this goes back to the whole conception of what a sinner is. In the church we believe some people are sinners, some are not. Whereas in some denominations, all people are sinners. Per the church, gays are sinners, and incapable of leading the lives of a decent, moral person. So the idea that gay parents could raise a kid in a good decent way is impossible. What it comes down to is the church thinks these gays are despicable people, but not worthy of lynching, or acting illegally or aggressively against.